Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 91 - RC Groups
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Nov 14, 2017, 04:55 AM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Hi John,

Morning here now! Thank you for all your comments to my question and I now have a better understanding of why there is this thinking. (though I still dont agree with it)

However, I still do not have an answer to the question why Green can't simply tighten sheets and go - thereby not having, herself, the need to infringe on Yellow. If Green chooses to luff Yellow, then she may not have given enough room, and should be penilised, so to avoid this infringment, she should simply tighten sheets and go!?

I'd also like to comment on your reason ("just remembered why - "). Perhaps the hovering boats are infringing the basic rule Part 1, 2. "Fair Sailing" by blocking the starting line to those boats making a speed-calculated approach to hit the line on the gun? And these boats are refusing to deal with the situation by the simple expedient of sheeting in and making an early start (which they clearly want to avoid doing!). And perhaps the hovering boats should be discouraged from this tactic?

I should also explain that I have had my starts frustrated by essentially stationary boats, sails flapping, close-reaching slowly down the line.

I can personally see why the Red boat scenario should require the Red boat (in isolation, without the Blue and Yellow) to simply bear off a little and pass under the Green boat (if close hauled) - which is what I would do.

But if the Green boat is close reaching slowly, and an overlap has been established from 2 lateral boat lengths to leeward, resulting in maybe 6 boatlengths of overlap before contact, then surely Red is entitled to sail her course (and luff if before the starting signal) so forcing the close-reaching Green boat to take prompt action?

I have attached (if I have done it right!) a diagram to show what I mean.
Last edited by TheKaledonian; Nov 14, 2017 at 07:01 AM.
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Nov 14, 2017, 05:27 AM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Hi Tarmstro. We Kiwis are very proud of our sailing prowess.
Nov 14, 2017, 07:32 AM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Hi John, Reference your post 1350, " And if the most weather boat is alongside the mark and cannot go up without hitting the mark, breaking R 31, then that room to keep clear has not been given back down the chain." Although not really relevant to this part of the thread, surely "the most weather boat" is making a barging start, she has no right to "water" ( or room?) and if she can only avoid a contact with another boat by hitting the mark or going the wrong side, then she is the at-fault boat? and has to do a turn? No proper course before start signal is also probably relevant. (or have I got this wrong?) I'd suggest that this adds to the case that such hovering starts should be discouraged.
Nov 14, 2017, 09:33 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Stewart,

I think you have some things right but wrong on others,

Boats luffing just below the line are not breaking any rules. They only have to start to keep clear if another boat gains ROW.

Yes, a boat could sheet in and go, but she could also try to luff up. The issue here is not what she does, the issue is the definition of Room. If the boat coming from astern makes an overlap very close to the (now) windward overlapped boat, the leeward boat breaks R 15 even if there is no contact

In your diagram - left side, yes the overlap was established and room given and Windward MUST stay clear.

In your diagram - right side, WIndward must begin to stay clear after the overlap starts, and leeward may luff up to head to wind as there is no proper course before the start signal. Just observe R 16.1 as ROW altering course.

On the comment of 'barging' Please look at pages 11 and 12 in my Starts article - especially the one at the bottom of page 12. The issue here is not 'mark room' because mark room does not apply at at start mark surounded by navigable water. The issue is in that definition of Room. For example when a ROW boat alters course (R16.1) by luffing up, just as another boat is passing close to the mark, then the room given includes the obligations of the rules of Part 2, Plus R 31- the boat at the mark has an obligation not to hit the mark. If you want to luff aboat above the mark then you must do it early enough that you do not force them into the mark - and remember in big boats - that mark would be a committee boat.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Nov 14, 2017 at 09:52 AM.
Nov 14, 2017, 11:16 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
I think the issue Stewart is talking about is about what the "hovering" boat does or does not do, not about the definition of room. John, you say "Yes, a boat could sheet in and go, but she could also try to luff up." Now, if that boat has another boat to windward and therefore cannot luff up without infringing rule 16.1, that does not prevent her from taking the first option of "sheet in and go". If she has room to sheet on yet does nothing, then she infringes rule 11.
Nov 14, 2017, 11:30 AM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Thanks, John.

I had already figured the starting mark scenario but in our discussion figured that the "barging" boat wouldn't have rights to room to clear the mark on the correct side and could only do so if enough space had been left by the adjacent leeward boat, so the leeward boat could shut the door. I think I understand all that issue and think that the rights and wrongs depend on the precise situation and whether the windward boat can actually squeeze his bow between the leeward boat and the buoy on the course sailed by the leeward boat or before the leeward boat begins to luff.

Thank you for comment on the sketches I attached. I sketched these a couple weeks ago and had already figured that the leeward boat could luff, under some circumstances.

But the issue that I still cant accept, and which was the original point of my original question, is how come leeward boat can demand room to do something inapproprate and simply bad seamanship? (e.g. luff when he clearly cant give room to keep clear to an adjacent boat and when he could simply hold his course, sheet in and sail straight ahead) You seem to be saying that a Give Way boat must be given room to swing her stern to lee and windward whether or not such action is necessary to avoid contact. I just can't see that interpretation in the definition of Room.

Case B1 has the phrases " if this requires her to luff" (note "if"), "or luffs higher than necessary", and "Unable to luff, she maintains her course and promptly sheets in to acceleate" (albeit that action might result in contact). This seems to support the interpretation that "Room" refers to appropriate action.

Are there cases or other precidence decisions which support your view?

Stewart
Nov 14, 2017, 11:38 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
If the boat coming from astern makes an overlap very close to the (now) windward overlapped boat, the leeward boat breaks R 15 even if there is no contactJohn
That depends on your definition of "very close".
If L established an overlap close enough that L could not alter course to windward without immediately contacting W, then yes, L breaks Rule 15 because, by definition, W is not keeping clear and has had no opportunity to do so from the moment the overlap is established.

However, if at the moment the overlap is established, L could still alter course to windward without immediately contacting W, then, by definition, W is keeping clear. At that same moment, W must act to remain keeping clear of L. If she does nothing, she infringes rule 11. If she makes every effort to keep clear, by any option available to her, but still cannot keep clear of L, she breaks R11, but is exonerated because L breaks R15. If W makes every effort to keep clear as soon as the overlap is established and remains keeping clear, then no rule is broken.
Nov 14, 2017, 01:02 PM
Lucas
There is a skill element to "hovering". If your boats get too much way on, you'll drift down into a leeward competitor and will have to sheet in and be over early. Likewise, there is a skill element to making a timed run at the line and finding a gap large enough for your boat. If you see someone in the second row looking for a hole, isn't it textbook to put the bow down and make the gap to leeward look less inviting. Doing so skillfully, without gaining speed is the trick, so that when the second row boat finds a juicier hole to slip into, you can turn back up and preserve your runway. Is this not how the game is played everywhere?

I feel like every sailing fleet has an slightly different average level of aggressiveness regarding the enforcement of rules. Note whether you are on the more aggressive end of the spectrum or the more relaxed end and adjust your sailing style to suit the group average. If you prefer to sail aggressively with the rules, but your local sailing group doesn't then you have some work to do to convince them of the fun that comes with tactical battles. I find close racing with other's who know and observe the rules to be very compelling. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and that is what circles are for.

The rules generally don't offer an unbeatable tactical strategy especially for starts. They are there to prevent collisions and to provide as level a playing field as possible.

I'm curious how the really top guys like Zvonko and Brad sail with respect to the rules. I suspect there is some advantage to being more aggressive, but you'd better be right more often than you are wrong, lest you loose the respect of your competitors. [added] I suppose if you have an advantage in boat speed, then perhaps you pick your tactical battles more carefully.
Nov 14, 2017, 03:05 PM
Registered User
Couldn't agree more ihurt !
I sail at several clubs, one they will slam the door on you just because they can. One you couldn't push that guy sailing down the line over with a bulldozer and one I just start way away from the raft up of boats. Keeps me happy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lhurt
There is a skill element to "hovering". If your boats get too much way on, you'll drift down into a leeward competitor and will have to sheet in and be over early. Likewise, there is a skill element to making a timed run at the line and finding a gap large enough for your boat. If you see someone in the second row looking for a hole, isn't it textbook to put the bow down and make the gap to leeward look less inviting. Doing so skillfully, without gaining speed is the trick, so that when the second row boat finds a juicier hole to slip into, you can turn back up and preserve your runway. Is this not how the game is played everywhere?

I feel like every sailing fleet has an slightly different average level of aggressiveness regarding the enforcement of rules. Note whether you are on the more aggressive end of the spectrum or the more relaxed end and adjust your sailing style to suit the group average. If you prefer to sail aggressively with the rules, but your local sailing group doesn't then you have some work to do to convince them of the fun that comes with tactical battles. I find close racing with other's who know and observe the rules to be very compelling. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and that is what circles are for.

The rules generally don't offer an unbeatable tactical strategy especially for starts. They are there to prevent collisions and to provide as level a playing field as possible.

I'm curious how the really top guys like Zvonko and Brad sail with respect to the rules. I suspect there is some advantage to being more aggressive, but you'd better be right more often than you are wrong, lest you loose the respect of your competitors. [added] I suppose if you have an advantage in boat speed, then perhaps you pick your tactical battles more carefully.
Nov 14, 2017, 03:21 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by huzway
Couldn't agree more ihurt !
I sail at several clubs, one they will slam the door on you just because they can. One you couldn't push that guy sailing down the line over with a bulldozer and one I just start way away from the raft up of boats. Keeps me happy.
Now you know for a moment, there is no way I'm going to sit here and let you talk that kind of smack..... I know with out a shadow of a doubt that you took great pleasure in keeping me from the line a couple days ago.... on more than one occasion.... All well within the rules of course.... but you were much happier doing that than bobbing about further down the line.
Nov 14, 2017, 03:44 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhurt

I'm curious how the really top guys like Zvonko and Brad sail with respect to the rules. I suspect there is some advantage to being more aggressive, but you'd better be right more often than you are wrong, lest you loose the respect of your competitors. [added] I suppose if you have an advantage in boat speed, then perhaps you pick your tactical battles more carefully.
If you check my STARTS article, there are links to several videos of starts from the 2011 IOM Worlds at West Kirby that refer to Brad Gibson and Peter Stollery (finished first and Second)

John
Nov 14, 2017, 05:58 PM
Registered User

Not smack at all


Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsmith
Now you know for a moment, there is no way I'm going to sit here and let you talk that kind of smack..... I know with out a shadow of a doubt that you took great pleasure in keeping me from the line a couple days ago.... on more than one occasion.... All well within the rules of course.... but you were much happier doing that than bobbing about further down the line.
"I find close racing with other's who know and observe the rules to be very compelling. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and that is what circles are for." Here is a important Part of the Quote I was referring to Marc.
Nov 14, 2017, 06:19 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar

To luff or not to luff - that is the question


Hi Stewart,

I have tried to create a diagram of the scenario that you are suggesting - Blue, Yellow and Green are all heading just below close hauled and their sails are luffing. Red come from clear astern with more speed - must keep clear under R 12. Red establishes an overlap at P2, and Yellow sheets in and begins to move forward (as you are requesting). Red is still going faster and the overlap increases but Red and Yellow are very close.

At P2, has Red given room to Yellow as required under R 15?
After P2, is Yellow now keeping clear of Red as required by R 11?
Between P2 and P3, are we still within the short period where R 15 applies ? - with IOMs, this may be about 1 second between P2 and P3?

This is a judgement call that a Protest Committee may have to make if it went to The Room.

Then a second diagram, (with Blue and Green omitted). Yellow is luffing slowly and Red approaches from astern with speed - and hails to Yellow to GO UP - Red want Yellow to sheet in and go forward to get out of Red's path.

If you are thinking of this type of scenario, then Red is quite wrong - she is clear astern and is the Keep Clear boat under R 12 and any hail she makes is irrelevant. Yellow correctly hails back that there is no overlap and therefor no obligation for Yellow to do anything.

John
Nov 14, 2017, 06:51 PM
If it floats....sail it!
FoamCrusher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhurt
I'm curious how the really top guys like Zvonko and Brad sail with respect to the rules. I suspect there is some advantage to being more aggressive, but you'd better be right more often than you are wrong, lest you loose the respect of your competitors. [added] I suppose if you have an advantage in boat speed, then perhaps you pick your tactical battles more carefully.
I watched a day of the IOM WCR at Foster City CA and learned a great deal just observing the world's top IOM sailors.

The boys in the A-Fleet sailed more defensively than aggressively, particularly at the start and first mark. At the starts, they all had staked out their positions on the line with about 30 seconds to go with about 3/4 of a boat length between boats, just hovering, occasionally sheeting in to move up the line a bit and then easing the sheets to fall back in order to close the "hole" so they could do it again if required. If you pointed too high you stalled had no room to regain that balance and so were left behind once everyone was racing. It was a real display of RC sailing skill.

Almost in unison at about 3 seconds to go, they slowly sheeted in and were moving forward just as the gun sounded. There was very little conversation and no loud voices as the race progressed.

There was a noticeable difference with the fleets down the alphabet as each lower fleet had progressively more boats trying for a running start at the gun rather than a hovering start and there was more talk during the races. There may be something to the fact that the top guys have all sailed against each other multiple times and to reach that level of competition you have to not only be skilled, but really know the rules.

In one heat I watched, Gibson rounded the leeward gate as the leader and was headed on starboard tack up through the fleet. Even though he had the ROW he never took it for granted and at one point when his boat was heeled about 40 degrees and it looked like his boat's rigging would catch the backstay of a boat that was running for the gate on port tack, he held is course, momentarily eased the sheets, his boat went upright, he sailed past the offender and sheeted in - all in one smooth motion. He did not call a protest and did not say a word. My guess is that he had too much to lose and so did not want to risk being in a protest hearing.

That's defensive racing.
Nov 14, 2017, 07:10 PM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Hi John,

No, I dont think the right hand picture, with only two boats, is the scenario I envisage. Rather Red is sailing close hauled, maybe at the angle shown in position 2 and Yellow is sailing slightly free at angle shown in position 1. With that scenario, there will have been an overlap for a few boat lengths before contact. You are showing a hook, while I envisage simple converging straight tracks. Since there will have been an overlap for a few boat lengths, there will have been an overlap for a few seconds - ample time for an IOM to respond, surely?

Of course you have already agreed that if the overlap was established from leeward from a lateral distance of 2 boat lengths, then Red is in the clear. I am looking at a scenario where the overlap is established from astern, inside the 2 lateral boat lengths, but nonetheless with enough room for Yellow to luff and sheet in.

In fact I envisage that in the left hand image shown, Red would approach in a straight line converging with Yellow's line so the overlap will have been established much earlier than you are showing.

Recently, at club racing,I have been encountering the converging courses shown in the sketch I sent you. At one extreme, Red overlaps from astern and bears away to avoid Yellow and at the other extreme, Red overlaps from 2 lateral boat lengths to leeward and simply holds course. Between these two extremes there is a sliding scale and at one proximity, Red would be entitled to hold course and force Yellow to harden sheets and sail across the line early.

The "hook" you are showing might well be the way you describe it but converging courses is the boat tracks I am looking at, since that is the real situation I am dealing with on the water.

Past my bedtime here now.

Stewart


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