Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 77 - RC Groups
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Aug 09, 2017, 03:08 PM
"consumerwil"
denisoni1's Avatar
Just in my own defence, the winch is slow so I was gyping until my front nose was past the mark, at which time I started to sheet in to port-tack.

So the calling of mark room would dictate my actions:
* Yellow calls mark room; White1 did not comply and should take penalty
* Yellow does not call mark room; White1 rounds tight to the mark, contact made; Yellow to do turn.

And of course White1 to do turn for dragging the main boom on the mark.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RW1966
I think Yellow could reasonably argue that White had been given mark room, and that the only reason Yellow hit White was because White hit the mark and therefore stopped suddenly.
If I was White, I wouldn't expect Yellow to have to do a turn because I made a mess of the mark rounding.
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Aug 09, 2017, 03:27 PM
Registered User
Yellow can call all day long and still would never have been entitled to room. They need to practice doing penalty turns because if they sail like that all the time there are more turns in their future (and very few second places!!!).

The only turn W1 owes is for dragging their boom on the mark. It is easy for everyone to miss those ones as they often don't touch hard enough to move the mark, particularly with these smaller boats where the weight of the pieces (and the whole boat) is not too much.

-Barry
Aug 09, 2017, 04:28 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray C
Hi John,

18.2(e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
Hi Murray,

I look at that screen shot and I think they are overlapped - just.

You are correct about 'if there is doubt' but that would only come up if Black protested White claiming mark room - and we don't know if that happened. Black gave White lots of room to round and they only collided after White was hit by Yellow.

We cannot resolve an item on a forum - just give commentary and suggestions on how to improve.

John
Aug 11, 2017, 11:17 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray C
Hi John,

18.2(e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

In the attached screen shot, Black is within the zone, there is clear water between Black's transom and White2's bow. Perspective/camera angle makes it extremely difficult to determine if an overlap has been established. White2 is very vulnerable in establishing an overlap so late and would be disqualified if Black protested under 18.2(b).

Black, as windward boat must keep clear of White2, even if White2 breaks 16.2(b) or 17.
I am confused. This is not a gate (not sure if that matters), but a leeward mark rounding. So if Black entered the zone Clear Ahead and, I thought, would be entitled to Mark Room from White2. Why would it matter if Black becomes Windward of White2?
Aug 12, 2017, 12:16 AM
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Murray C's Avatar
Rule 11
Aug 12, 2017, 10:37 AM
Registered User
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.

So does this mean that, after the first boat (Black) enters the zone Clear Ahead, if an overlap is established by the Clear Astern boat (White2) to leeward, then White2 becomes the ROW boat? If so, what is the purpose of the last sentence of R18.2(b) and R18.2(c)? Would Black be exonerated of a R11 infraction?
Last edited by RCLaser03; Aug 12, 2017 at 05:34 PM.
Aug 12, 2017, 06:29 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
I have tried to create a diagram of the incident so we have clear colours to describe each boat in the video
In this diagram,
Green represents Orange
Light Blue is the white boat.
Yellow is the black boat.
Red is the trailing outside white boat of that group.
Then there are two other boats -
Mauve is the outside black/mauve boat and
Dark Blue is the following white boat.

From this diagram, there are two separate incidents -
For the inside group, Green owes mark room to light blue and breaks R 18.2.b when they collide.
Light Blue hits the mark on her own just before the contact from Green and breaks R 31.
As light blue has yet not started to take the penalty for hitting the mark, she is entitled to the protections and responsibilies of the rules.
Light Blue may owe mark room to Yellow (it is not clear) but Yellow goes wide to clear Light Blue but they collide after Light Blue is hit by Green. So Light Blue is exonerated for hitting Yellow.
Red sails wide but she sees the hole after the collision and sails through it without affecting anyone, so Red breaks no rules.
Green has a penalty for not giving Mark Room and Light Blue has a penalty for hitting the mark.
Green gained significant advantage by her foul and needs to do several penalty turns until behind Light Blue and Yellow.

Then there are two more outside boats having their own incident. Mauve is on port and clear ahead of Dark Blue on stbd when she touches the zone, so Dark Blue even though she is on stbd still has to give mark room. Dark Blue gybes several times (not relevant) but hits the stern of Mauve causing her to turn to stbd, and away from the mark. Dark Blue breaks R 18.2.b. Mauve was sailing her proper course to round the mark as she was giving mark room to those boats inside her.

As Dark Blue breaks R18.2.b it does not matter whether Mauve broke R 11, or maybe Blue broke R 12 after she gybed to port and hit Mauve from astern - or if Dark Blue became slightly overlapped on Mauve's port quarter and another sequence of rules may apply like R 15/R 11. The point is Dark Blue fouled Mauve and needs to take a penalty.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Aug 12, 2017 at 06:40 PM.
Aug 13, 2017, 06:40 PM
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Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLaser03
So does this mean that, after the first boat (Black) enters the zone Clear Ahead, if an overlap is established by the Clear Astern boat (White2) to leeward, then White2 becomes the ROW boat?
A boat has ROW when another boat is required to keep clear. Rule 18 doesn't require one boat to keep clear of another. But it does require one boat to give mark-room to another.
When White establishes a leeward overlap, Rule 11 stipulates that Black must keep clear of White. Therefore, White is the ROW boat.
Quote:
If so, what is the purpose of the last sentence of R18.2(b) and R18.2(c)? Would Black be exonerated of a R11 infraction?
Even though White is the ROW boat, if she established the overlap after Black entered the zone, White must continue to give Black mark-room and room to sail her proper course.
As long as Black is sailing within that mark-room or room, rule 21 will exonerate her from infringing rule 11.
Last edited by Murray C; Aug 13, 2017 at 10:56 PM.
Aug 14, 2017, 11:45 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar

Rule 20 Hail for room to tack and Protest


Three boats are on a beat on stbd tack. Yellow, ahead and to leeward tacks to port, while clear ahead, but her jib topping lift catches on the spreader and she slows down and cannot tack back to clear it.

Green and Red are close, so Green hails for room to tack. Red tacks and immediately protests Green. Green tacks immediately after Red, and protests Yellow.

No boats take penalty turns, so it goes to a protest hearing.

So the question is "Who broke which rules"? What is the outcome from the Protest?

John
Aug 14, 2017, 11:58 AM
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Crunchy Frog's Avatar
The way I see this is Yellow and Green should both be DSQ. Yellow for failing to keep clear while on port. Green for calling for room to tack when no room was required. Green could easily just duck the floundering yellow and continue sailing, while also hailing to protest Yellow.

Yellow, if they were smart, would have born off into a gybe and done a circle. This would have accounted for her fouling of Green and also, perhaps, cleared her jib topping lift from her spreader.
Aug 14, 2017, 12:03 PM
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Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Hmm. Now I am doubting myself.

Green, as leeward boat, has rights over Red. Green is avoiding an obstruction. If the situation were reversed (Green and Red on port, Yellow on starboard), the leeward of the port boats gets to choose between duck and tack. So I'll revise my statement.

Yellow (only) DSQ for port/starboard foul and for not doing a turn.
Aug 14, 2017, 12:18 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Why is Red protesting Green?

John
Aug 14, 2017, 12:55 PM
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Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Why is Red protesting Green?

John
Presumably, Red felt that Green didn't have the right to call for room to tack.
Aug 14, 2017, 12:57 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Why is Red protesting Green?

John
Green is now on port.
Aug 14, 2017, 01:04 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog
Presumably, Red felt that Green didn't have the right to call for room to tack.
But earlier, you said that Yellow was an obstruction - so why did Green not have the right to call for room to tack?

John


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