Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 73 - RC Groups
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Jul 16, 2017, 08:42 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Haxawsnavy.

Very good attempt - only saw one error in 2). D has to stay clear of C under R 10 P keeps clear of S. This is the same situation that you struggled with before - so try to remember that windward and leeward only apply when boats are on the same tack (or gybe). If one is on the opposite tack to the other, then the one on Port keeps clear.

All port tack boats must keep clear of all stbd tack boats so D, E and F keep clear of A, B and C. under R 10.

Then same tack windward boats keep clear of leeward boats.

So for the port tackers, F keeps clear of E and both keep clear of D. R 11
And for that stbd tackers, C keeps clear of B and both keep clear of A. R 11.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Jul 16, 2017 at 08:55 AM.
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Jul 16, 2017, 10:21 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Note also that if C passes to stbd of A & B, C must give room to E & F to do so too. R19
Jul 16, 2017, 07:16 PM
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davidjensen's Avatar
Let me get this straight. If a boat is close hauled and on starboard and the other boat is going down wind also on starboard the downwind boat must give room to the starboard boat beating to windward?
Jul 16, 2017, 07:56 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjensen
Let me get this straight. If a boat is close hauled and on starboard and the other boat is going down wind also on starboard the downwind boat must give room to the starboard boat beating to windward?
Hi David,

Not 'give room' but 'Keep clear' (as R 11 applies and stbd leeward has ROW and stbd windward must keep clear).

But if you are referring to Murray's comment, he was going beyond the original question in to another situation that could develop next as the boats advance (but not covered) in my quiz diagram.

He was saying that if C on stbd chose stay clear of A and B by bearing away and pass to weather of A and B, then as A and B are obstructions to C, E and F, then under R 19, C would have to give 'room' to the port tack ( gybe) boats E and F to also pass to weather of A and B.

Although the terms room, mark room, room to keep clear and keep clear sound similar, they are unique and each applies differently as the relevant rules apply. I wrote about these differences in Chapter 1 The Definitions on my rules and tactics web page.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Jul 16, 2017 at 11:54 PM.
Jul 16, 2017, 09:22 PM
Will fly for food
davidjensen's Avatar
So down wind boats have ROW to boats on the same tack going upwind? This scenario happened to me and I was told I was in the wrong and that the downwind boat had ROW and it was the boat on close haul that had to keep clear.
Jul 16, 2017, 10:46 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjensen
So down wind boats have ROW to boats on the same tack going upwind? This scenario happened to me and I was told I was in the wrong and that the downwind boat had ROW and it was the boat on close haul that had to keep clear.
No David,


when two boats are on the same tack, the boat sailing downwind is to windward of the boat sailing close hauled and has to keep clear.

This text is on page 5 of the Definitions chapter with this diagram

This one is harder to see – but believe it or not, these two boats, Yellow and Green, are also considered to be overlapped. They are both on the same tack – Starboard in this case. Now ask – “Is Green behind a line drawn square off the stern of Yellow?” – No! Then ask “Is Yellow behind a line drawn square off the stern of Green?” Again No! – So as neither is clear astern of the other, they MUST be overlapped. As they are overlapped and on the same tack, R 11 W/L applies and Yellow as windward boat, must stay clear of Green.

John
Jul 16, 2017, 10:56 PM
Will fly for food
davidjensen's Avatar
This is how I interpreted the rules. I was quite confused and by their arrogance of my "lack of knowledge of the rules". Oh well.
Jul 17, 2017, 12:48 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Hi David,
One method that can be helpful in a situation of conflicting interpretations is to ask the other party to help you understand by showing you the rule/s that support their case. Often that leads to an 'aha moment" when they realise that the rules actually support your view, not theirs.

Often it can be helpful to de-clutter a rule when trying to interpret it. In the example above with John's diagram, we can see that Green and Yellow are both on the same tack and, as John explained, are overlapped.
Looking at rule 11:

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.


We can see that the windward boat has to keep clear. But what the heck is windward ? Because the word is in italics, we have to look at the definition of windward...

A boatís leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.

Holy carp! That's a cluttered mass of words. But we can de-clutter it by removing what is not relevant to the situation at the moment. No boat is "head to wind", so...

A boatís leeward side is the side that is... ...away from the wind.
...The other side is her windward side.


So Green's windward side is her Starboard side, because her Port side is away from the wind.

For Yellow...

...when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies.

So Yellow's leeward side is her Port Side.

We have now determined what side of each boat is windward and which is leeward.
Now we look at the definition to determine which boat is which...

...When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.

Green is on the Port side of Yellow, Yellow's Port side is her leeward side, so Green is the leeward boat. The other boat, Yellow, is therefore the windward boat and R11 says she must keep clear.
Jul 17, 2017, 01:39 AM
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjensen
So down wind boats have ROW to boats on the same tack going upwind? This scenario happened to me and I was told I was in the wrong and that the downwind boat had ROW and it was the boat on close haul that had to keep clear.
whoever told you that should be kicked in the shins and forced to read the rules...
Jul 17, 2017, 06:14 AM
Thomas Armstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
when two boats are on the same tack, the boat sailing downwind is to windward of the boat sailing close hauled and has to keep clear.

My way to quickly decide if some other boat is overlapped with me is this:
  1. Is my boat behind his stern? (If yes, the other is clear ahead, so no overlap)
  2. Is his boat behind my stern? (if yes, the other is clear astern, so no overlap)
  3. If both answers for above questions are NO, then we are overlapped!
Jul 17, 2017, 02:03 PM
Registered User
I would be careful here because of the use of the word "downwind". The Leeward boat is downwind of the windward boat "on a run". So your friend may have been referring to the Leeward boat as the downwind boat, not the boat running downwind.
Jul 17, 2017, 03:19 PM
IBEX Lair, Cavalero Hill

Be careful of the word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLaser03
I would be careful here because of the use of the word "downwind". The Leeward boat is downwind of the windward boat "on a run". So your friend may have been referring to the Leeward boat as the downwind boat, not the boat running downwind.
That is what I meant when I said that to David. But just to be safe, I'm bringing shin guards to Naples. JWB
Jul 17, 2017, 05:27 PM
Registered User
Well I am sorry USA 42, even with many World Championships under your belt, Windward RC says you must learn the rules and be kicked in the shins and as he is judge and jury on the forum, you must take the punishment.
Jul 18, 2017, 10:30 AM
"consumerwil"
denisoni1's Avatar

Dippin' the reach...


Just wondering if there is any tactical advantage of dipping the reach - See from 0:43 second mark. I see it happen often but not sure if its strategy or a speed thing. The boats remain on starboard towards the other mark. Because you have overlap do you have rounding rights? Or is it a windward / leeward thing?

Beaver Fever 2017 - IOM Gold Fleet (4 min 30 sec)
Jul 18, 2017, 10:57 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
There could be a couple of reasons,

driving off to accelerate before coming up to the lay line,

or

getting low to protect the inside to ensure Mark Room at the next mark

or just over steering.

John


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