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Mar 27, 2017, 01:34 PM
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Thanks, the whole 4 boat lengths is tough. on this particular day we sailed 3 classes. RG vic and Soling... so you gotta think about that and the speed at which the stuff happens. and the point of view from both skippers.
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Mar 27, 2017, 02:02 PM
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Ok, heres what you would think would be a simple question: Can competitors call someone over early at the starting line, or is it at the discretion of the person watching the line?
Mar 27, 2017, 02:16 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevezero
Ok, heres what you would think would be a simple question: Can competitors call someone over early at the starting line, or is it at the discretion of the person watching the line?
It is a function of the Race Committee not another competitor. See underscored text.

John

E3.5 Individual Recall
Rule 29.1 is changed to:
When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course
side of the starting line or when she must comply with rule 30.1, the
race committee shall
promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat
the hail as appropriate. If rule 30.3 or 30.4 applies this rule does not.
Mar 29, 2017, 08:10 AM
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glendaw's Avatar
I'd like to highlight John's comment that " it would be better to let Blue in and protest her, rather than forcing her into the mark. "

Skippers need to remember that the basic rules 10 to 13 (Port/Starboard; Windward/Leeward; Clear Ahead/Clear Astern and Tacking boat keeps clear) DO NOT SWITCH OFF at marks. The mark rounding rules do not override the basic rules, but must be read in conjunction with the basic rules.

In the situation shown, the windward boat may have mark room but still has a responsibility to keep clear of a leeward boat. If the leeward boat comes in late and does not give the windward boat mark room, then the windward boat must keep clear, and subsequently protest the leeward boat for not giving the mark room to the windward boat which reached the zone clear ahead. Exactly what John advised.

The advantage which the windward boat has, is that she was clear ahead in the lead-up to the situation. The Protest Committee will ask whether the overlap was established in time, and in the event there is doubt, it shall find, in this case, that the overlap was not established in time. Therefore, it is more likely that they will find that the windward boat has mark room which was not given. It would be highly unlikely that the leading boat would lose such a protest.

If the windward boat does not keep clear, she stands to be in trouble in the event that the boats contact and become tangled, or damaged under Rule 14.

The other issue which this situation highlights; a really important point, is that an overlap depends on the line drawn at right-angles to the course of the boat which enters the zone first. When boats are on a widely differing course, you do need to be careful about where that line projects.
Apr 03, 2017, 06:17 PM
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Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendaw
Skippers need to remember that the basic rules 10 to 13 (Port/Starboard; Windward/Leeward; Clear Ahead/Clear Astern and Tacking boat keeps clear) DO NOT SWITCH OFF at marks. The mark rounding rules do not override the basic rules, but must be read in conjunction with the basic rules.
Actually in conjunction with ALL of the rules, including this one:
21 EXONERATION
When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall be exonerated if, in an incident with a boat required to give her that room or mark-room,
(a) she breaks a rule of Section A, rule 15 or rule 16, or
(b) she is compelled to break rule 31.

Boat A was clear ahead at the zone and therefore entitled to mark-room - rule 18.2(b)
From that moment and thereafter, boat B must give A room to leave the mark on the required side, which she does (A left the mark to port and had lots of room to windward). However, the definition of mark-room also states that A is entitled to room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it. Rule 18.2(c) requires B to continue to give room after the overlap is established.

By failing to allow A to sail close to the mark, B infringes rule 18.2(c).
Rule 21(a) exonerates A for infringing rule 11.

Quote:
If the windward boat does not keep clear, she stands to be in trouble in the event that the boats contact and become tangled, or damaged under Rule 14.
A does not have to anticipate that B will break rule 18 and should expect that B will give room. The time when it becomes clear that room is not being given is at the mark, by which time it is too late for A to take any action to avoid contact and A does not break rule 14.
Apr 03, 2017, 07:01 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Murray C.
Thanks for the comments -

There is a difference between R 14 and R 21 when it comes to exoneration.

R 14 applies to a boat that has ROW and fails to avoid contact with a keep clear boat. If damage, even the ROW boat must retire.

R 21 applies to a boat that is entitled to mark room or room at an obstruction, room to keep clear (Rules of Section A plus, R 15 or R 16) (ie may not have ROW) or hitting mark. R 21 does not include any reference to damage. Not only does she not have to take a penalty, the boat that was denied room does not have to retire, if there is damage.

John
Apr 03, 2017, 11:59 PM
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Murray C's Avatar
Hi John,
Quote:
R 14 applies to a boat that has ROW and fails to avoid contact with a keep clear boat.
Just to clarify, rule 14 applies to both the ROW boat AND the give way boat.
Contact between boats does not necessarily mean that the boat entitled to room has broken rule 14. If she takes reasonable action to avoid contact as soon as it is clear the other boat is not giving room, but cannot avoid contact by her actions alone, then she has not broken rule 14.
"Reasonably possible". It is not reasonable to expect a ROW boat or one entitled to room to anticipate another boat is going to break a rule before a rule is broken.
However, it is often prudent in the type of situation discussed, for skippers to hail for "room" or "no room" when approaching a mark, even though the rules do not require a hail. This can be even more helpful in model racing where perception can be distorted by distance of the boats from skippers to a far greater extent than from cockpit to bow in full-size boats.

Quote:
If damage, even the ROW boat must retire.
I disagree. The penalty to retire stipulates "serious damage". If there is damage but not serious damage to either boat, then a 1-turn penalty is sufficient in the case of a breach of rule 14 (with no significant advantage gain), unless she causes the other boat to become disabled and retire,
Last edited by Murray C; Apr 04, 2017 at 12:29 AM.
Apr 04, 2017, 08:29 AM
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glendaw's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray C

I disagree. The penalty to retire stipulates "serious damage". If there is damage but not serious damage to either boat, then a 1-turn penalty is sufficient in the case of a breach of rule 14 (with no significant advantage gain), unless she causes the other boat to become disabled and retire,
Hi Murray,

Thanks for your comments - I largely agree with your assessment.

There are a couple of things though - Rule 14 no longer stipulates "serious" damage - the 2017-2020 rules only say "contact does not cause damage or injury". So the amount of damage isn't stipulated any more.

The other thing is that from a racing strategy point of view, the windward boat would be a bit foolish to enforce it's right to mark room if it meant that there was a chance that the two boats might contact or become attached in some way. Its a case of holding right of way in the face of possibly ruining your race. I think I would still rather keep clear and protest.

The biggest problem which might face the windward boat is establishing that she actually was clear ahead at the zone. If contact does occur, and the committee finds that an overlap did exist (funnier things have happened), then the windward boat is in a spot of bother.

Its a situation which occurs quite frequently at our club, and I imagine at many clubs racing RC boats.
Apr 04, 2017, 10:33 AM
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Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendaw
There are a couple of things though - Rule 14 no longer stipulates "serious" damage - the 2017-2020 rules only say "contact does not cause damage or injury". So the amount of damage isn't stipulated any more.
Quite right Glendaw. There is no doubt that if the ROW boat breaks rule 14 and there is any amount of damage or injury (the latter not likely in model yacht racing unless things are really heated! ), then she may take a penalty.
But, as I mentioned in my original reply to you, a rule must be interpreted in conjunction with ALL the rules, which includes the appendices when appropriate. According to rule E4.3, a boat may take a 1-turn penalty when she may have breached rule 14. It is only when that breach results in serious damage of any boat or retirement of another boat that she must retire.

Quote:
The other thing is that from a racing strategy point of view, the windward boat would be a bit foolish to enforce it's right to mark room if it meant that there was a chance that the two boats might contact or become attached in some way. Its a case of holding right of way in the face of possibly ruining your race. I think I would still rather keep clear and protest.
Absolutely. My interpretations are in response to Marcsmith's diagram and statement which establish the fact A was clear ahead:
Quote:
blue was trying to argue that even though no overlap was apparent upon entering the zone, that since red had overstood the mark, blue was able to take mark room on an overlap created inside the zone since red was not sailing close hauled
In this case, boat B (blue) acknowledges boat A was clear ahead when it entered the zone. After establishing a late overlap, B could easily have borne away to avoid A and the mark and A could reasonably expect that to happen. My point is that A has no need to take action until the moment it is absolutely clear that B is not giving mark-room. That moment can be so late (ie, right at the mark) that no matter what action A takes, it may not be reasonably possible to avoid contact with B unless B also takes action to avoid contact (which B is required by rule 14 to do). In that case, A does not break rule 14 and therefore should not be penalized, even in the event of damage.

That is why hails such as "room" or "clear ahead" when approaching the mark can be helpful. If B had hailed for room at the moment the overlap was established, A would have known B's intentions, could easily give room and then protest.

Quote:
The biggest problem which might face the windward boat is establishing that she actually was clear ahead at the zone.
Bingo! From a remote controlling point, it can be very difficult to determine if a boat really is clear ahead or not. Much easier on a full size boat, easier still with a crew member on the bow. Parallax has a wonderful way of creating an overlap when one does not exist. Again, hailing well before the mark can help to establish the existence of an overlap. If the other boat acknowledges there is no overlap before the zone is reached, then it is their onus to prove they gained an overlap in time. If, on the other hand, the inside boat claims to have an overlap before the zone, then the outside boat can either agree and give room, or disagree, give room and protest.
Apr 17, 2017, 12:40 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar

Over Early - Recalled


I saw this incident in the IOM video from France - site of the upcoming IOM Worlds. Watch the Yellow boat, sail number 07. He is called over early, but does not handle the situation well - he fouls at least three boats when he bears away to return. (Note - My boat is Yellow and has sail number 7 BUT it was not me!).

What we don't see are any penalty turns - not only does he have to return to restart, he should do at least three penalty turns for three separate incidents of hitting leeward boats, breaking R 11 and R 22.

https://youtu.be/QkPs0nOzytc?t=1248

I made up a couple of diagrams - not exactly like the incident but close - the point is that if you are called over early and need to return to restart, it is better to luff your sails to slow down, and then luff up slowly, and once clear tack to return. While you slow down and luff, you are still sailing the course with all the normal rights and other boats behind and to weather must stay clear of you. When you want to tack, you are subject to R 13, so wait until clear. Only after you have borne away are you clearly returning to restart and become subject to R 22.

In the first diagram, Blue luffs sails to slow, then tacks behind Yellow before bearing away to restart. Luffing and tacking also puts you out so that you can go around the end of the pin if the I Flag R 30.1 is in effect.

In the other diagram, Blue bears away and fouls Green and Red and needs to do two penalty turns as well as returning to restart.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Apr 17, 2017 at 01:29 PM.
Apr 18, 2017, 02:50 PM
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Murray C's Avatar
A moment before #7 bears away and infringes the boats to leeward, it looks as though he may have been able to tack and bear away on port, as #168 & 273 had already tacked away. Even if he just luffed head to wind, the white boat would probably opt to dip #7's stern, which would then leave #7 clear to tack. As John suggests, 'tis a far better path than the road to carnage.
Apr 20, 2017, 08:24 AM
Registered User
been over early before in the middle of the fleet its easy to panic and do the wrong thing. especially if you are closer to one end of the line vs the other.
Apr 21, 2017, 03:34 AM
OlivierFRA100
FRA3700's Avatar
John, with live video during the whole World Championship, you will have plenty of material for such analysis !


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