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Mar 17, 2017, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
Hunting is not a term in the RRS. There's no such thing. As Port and Starboard approach each other, Starboard can sail any course they wish, as long as Port has an option to stay clear. If that option is to sail above the start line, so be it.
Really? If S is sailing down the line, S can just head up and hit P? P is giving S Room assuming S does not change coarse. I would think P should be able to assume S is going to maintain her straight line coarse. If this is true, then S cannot alter coarse to "hunt" P, hence S needs to wait for P to pass before heading up to the line.
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Mar 17, 2017, 11:50 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
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Originally Posted by RCLaser03 View Post
Really? If S is sailing down the line, S can just head up and hit P? .
Your conclusion does not match the words that Crunchy used - he said - 'as long as Port has (an option) room to keep clear'

R 16.1. S cannot suddenly head up and tag P who is sailing past and keeping clear to weather. But he can head up as long as P has room to stay clear.

But in reality, S, seeing P approaching, could head up a couple of seconds sooner, and then Port, who still has to keep clear, may be forced over the line early.

John
Mar 18, 2017, 11:17 PM
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Alternative Penalties


Firstly - apologies for going back over a topic which has been covered recently in this thread (Post #877 onwards).
However, despite John's excellent description, there are many skippers still misinterpreting the "significant advantage" aspect of this rule.

Often, a boat which has been infringed (ROW boat) calls the infringing boat (Keep clear boat) to do another turn if the infringing boat comes out of an incident ahead of the infringed boat. What concerns me is that this is becoming a culture in radio sailing. The rule about significant advantage (E4.3b) talks about the advantage gained by the infringing boat - it mentions nothing about the loss experienced by the infringed boat.

So lets say two boats collide. At the time of the collision these boats are (ROW boat)5th and (Keep clear boat)6th in a race, and by the time the infringing boat completes its turn, the boats are now 9th and 8th respectively (ie the ROW boat has gone from 5th to 9th and the Keep clear boat has gone from 6th to 8th).

The Keep clear boat has gone from 6th to 8th - it has not gained an advantage in the context of the RACE. Note that the rule talks about receiving an advantage in the "Race or series". The fact that the ROW boat has received a disadvantage and gone from 5th to 9th is not covered by the rule (E4.3b). In the context of a series, when total point scores might be in the hundreds, the loss of few points is not really significant.

The one time in which the situation above could be considered a significant advantage, would be if there are 5 boats out in front clearly battling for a top 4 position in order to be promoted into the next fleet, and the infringement caused a boat to go from 4th to 5th. In this instance, a significant advantage in terms of the race has been gained - the opportunity to battle for points in the next higher fleet. Here - I think the infringing boat should take additional turns until the original positions have been established.

One other problem with this rule -
Lets say a boat accepts that they need to do additional turns, and are in the process of doing so. The infringed boat is getting underway (lets say they were in irons after the incident). In the process, the infringed boat hits a mark, or infringes another boat. In the absence of the original incident - none of this might have happened. The second incident could be argued is a direct result of the first. Is the infringing boat required to continue to perform penalty turns until the ROW boat has rectified its second obligation, re-commenced racing and gotten in front of the keep clear boat?
Last edited by glendaw; Mar 18, 2017 at 11:25 PM.
Mar 19, 2017, 10:33 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendaw View Post

One other problem with this rule -
Lets say a boat accepts that they need to do additional turns, and are in the process of doing so. The infringed boat is getting underway (lets say they were in irons after the incident). In the process, the infringed boat hits a mark, or infringes another boat. In the absence of the original incident - none of this might have happened. The second incident could be argued is a direct result of the first. Is the infringing boat required to continue to perform penalty turns until the ROW boat has rectified its second obligation, re-commenced racing and gotten in front of the keep clear boat?
Hi Glen,
I would suggest that the infringed boat that was in irons was as a direct result of the original incident, so hitting a mark or interfering with another boat while still in irons is directly related to the original foul. Therefore this is not a new incident and the infringed boat is exonerated.

John
Mar 19, 2017, 11:55 PM
Registered User
I've seen the "extra turns" rule applied most often in umpired races. In those cases, the umpires are the ones who look at the fouling boat and make the judgement of how much of an advantage was gained in the incident and immediately specify extra turns. I don't think they look at the incident in the context of an entire race series, they look how much the fouling boat has gained from its behavior and specify turns accordingly. A good yardstick is what has happened to the right of way boat but that is not the only criteria.


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