Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 66 - RC Groups
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Mar 17, 2017, 10:34 PM
Sailor and Radio Ham
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog
Hunting is not a term in the RRS. There's no such thing. As Port and Starboard approach each other, Starboard can sail any course they wish, as long as Port has an option to stay clear. If that option is to sail above the start line, so be it.
Really? If S is sailing down the line, S can just head up and hit P? P is giving S Room assuming S does not change coarse. I would think P should be able to assume S is going to maintain her straight line coarse. If this is true, then S cannot alter coarse to "hunt" P, hence S needs to wait for P to pass before heading up to the line.
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Mar 18, 2017, 12:50 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLaser03
Really? If S is sailing down the line, S can just head up and hit P? .
Your conclusion does not match the words that Crunchy used - he said - 'as long as Port has (an option) room to keep clear'

R 16.1. S cannot suddenly head up and tag P who is sailing past and keeping clear to weather. But he can head up as long as P has room to stay clear.

But in reality, S, seeing P approaching, could head up a couple of seconds sooner, and then Port, who still has to keep clear, may be forced over the line early.

John
Mar 19, 2017, 12:17 AM
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glendaw's Avatar

Alternative Penalties


Firstly - apologies for going back over a topic which has been covered recently in this thread (Post #877 onwards).
However, despite John's excellent description, there are many skippers still misinterpreting the "significant advantage" aspect of this rule.

Often, a boat which has been infringed (ROW boat) calls the infringing boat (Keep clear boat) to do another turn if the infringing boat comes out of an incident ahead of the infringed boat. What concerns me is that this is becoming a culture in radio sailing. The rule about significant advantage (E4.3b) talks about the advantage gained by the infringing boat - it mentions nothing about the loss experienced by the infringed boat.

So lets say two boats collide. At the time of the collision these boats are (ROW boat)5th and (Keep clear boat)6th in a race, and by the time the infringing boat completes its turn, the boats are now 9th and 8th respectively (ie the ROW boat has gone from 5th to 9th and the Keep clear boat has gone from 6th to 8th).

The Keep clear boat has gone from 6th to 8th - it has not gained an advantage in the context of the RACE. Note that the rule talks about receiving an advantage in the "Race or series". The fact that the ROW boat has received a disadvantage and gone from 5th to 9th is not covered by the rule (E4.3b). In the context of a series, when total point scores might be in the hundreds, the loss of few points is not really significant.

The one time in which the situation above could be considered a significant advantage, would be if there are 5 boats out in front clearly battling for a top 4 position in order to be promoted into the next fleet, and the infringement caused a boat to go from 4th to 5th. In this instance, a significant advantage in terms of the race has been gained - the opportunity to battle for points in the next higher fleet. Here - I think the infringing boat should take additional turns until the original positions have been established.

One other problem with this rule -
Lets say a boat accepts that they need to do additional turns, and are in the process of doing so. The infringed boat is getting underway (lets say they were in irons after the incident). In the process, the infringed boat hits a mark, or infringes another boat. In the absence of the original incident - none of this might have happened. The second incident could be argued is a direct result of the first. Is the infringing boat required to continue to perform penalty turns until the ROW boat has rectified its second obligation, re-commenced racing and gotten in front of the keep clear boat?
Last edited by glendaw; Mar 19, 2017 at 12:25 AM.
Mar 19, 2017, 11:33 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendaw

One other problem with this rule -
Lets say a boat accepts that they need to do additional turns, and are in the process of doing so. The infringed boat is getting underway (lets say they were in irons after the incident). In the process, the infringed boat hits a mark, or infringes another boat. In the absence of the original incident - none of this might have happened. The second incident could be argued is a direct result of the first. Is the infringing boat required to continue to perform penalty turns until the ROW boat has rectified its second obligation, re-commenced racing and gotten in front of the keep clear boat?
Hi Glen,
I would suggest that the infringed boat that was in irons was as a direct result of the original incident, so hitting a mark or interfering with another boat while still in irons is directly related to the original foul. Therefore this is not a new incident and the infringed boat is exonerated.

John
Mar 20, 2017, 12:55 AM
Registered User
I've seen the "extra turns" rule applied most often in umpired races. In those cases, the umpires are the ones who look at the fouling boat and make the judgement of how much of an advantage was gained in the incident and immediately specify extra turns. I don't think they look at the incident in the context of an entire race series, they look how much the fouling boat has gained from its behavior and specify turns accordingly. A good yardstick is what has happened to the right of way boat but that is not the only criteria.
Mar 26, 2017, 06:27 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar

Racing Rules Video 2017-2020


Just found this on Youtube.

Have not finished watching it all yet, but it looks good, although a but long at about 90 minutes.

Sailboat Racing Rules 2017 (1 hr 31 min 40 sec)


John
Mar 27, 2017, 11:50 AM
Registered User
at position 1 (red) I was laying the mark coming from the dock, entered the zone before blue, Blue was below lay line

therefore, in my opinion Blue had no rights to the mark. at position 3 the wind shifted and blue is now able to lay the mark.

as a result of the shifty conditions red was sailing slower and blue caught red at the mark and we made contact. (no damage)

Position 1 and 2 Rule 12 applies. same tack not overlapped

At Position 2 for Red rule 18 turns on red enters zone.

So in my opinion... 18.2 b and c (1) is the applicable rule. Since they were not overlapped when red entered the zone. therefore "if a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter giver her mark room"

and per 18.2 c1 blue shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins.
Mar 27, 2017, 12:32 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Mark,

Mark room begins to apply when the first boat touches the zone - so at about P1. (Not at P2 when Red is already well inside the zone)

Your diagram has the boats overlapped at P1 as the first boat reaches the zone. (Draw a line square off the stern of the weather boat and it passes through the bow of the leeward boat - so they are overlapped).

So the inside boat is entitled to mark room. R 18.2.b. If the overlap changes subsequently, the inside boat retains the mark room R 18.2.c.

If you change the diagram and move Blue astern by half a boat length or more at P 1, then there is no overlap and Red is clear ahead at the zone and gets the Mark Room. R 18.2.b. In this case Blue establishing a late overlap inside the zone would be at fault if you come together at the mark. R 18.2.c.


John
Last edited by hiljoball; Mar 27, 2017 at 01:06 PM.
Mar 27, 2017, 01:04 PM
Registered User
John, sorry my bad on the drawing. Red was clear ahead. I should have done the line off the transom but I forgot. I guess it shows how important a drawing is... I'd never be able to do a good protest room drawing...

I know if blue came in on port and then tacked underneath red, that blue cannot take red any higher than close hauled. and I'm also aware if blue was overlapped that red would have to give room, even though she over stood the mark.

blue was trying to argue that even though no overlap was apparent upon entering the zone, that since red had overstood the mark, blue was able to take mark room on an overlap created inside the zone since red was not sailing close hauled kind of a mishmash of 18.2 f and 18.3

ignoring 18.2 b (last sentence)
Mar 27, 2017, 01:05 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Just added the last sentence to my reply that matches your comment about the faulty diagram.

Here it is again.


If you change the diagram and move Blue astern by half a boat length or more at P 1, then there is no overlap and Red is clear ahead at the zone and gets the Mark Room. R 18.2.b. In this case Blue establishing a late overlap inside the zone would be at fault if you come together at the mark. R 18.2.c.


John
Mar 27, 2017, 01:33 PM
Registered User
John

i must have not refreshed the page before i stared typing. here is the corrected image

it was a tough day as the wind was really swirling about and in all theory, being further off the wind red should've easily beaten blue to the mark but it was an odd wind day...
Mar 27, 2017, 01:58 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsmith
blue was trying to argue that even though no overlap was apparent upon entering the zone, that since red had overstood the mark, blue was able to take mark room on an overlap created inside the zone since red was not sailing close hauled kind of a mishmash of 18.2 f and 18.3 ignoring 18.2 b (last sentence)
Hi Mark,
as you can see from your revised diagram, it is a close call based on the location of the zone. So it would be better to let Blue in and protest her, rather than forcing her into the mark. If you let her in and there is no contact, in the protest hearing you may not 'win' the protest (it may be dismissed), but at least you will not lose the protest.

However in the case if Blue makes the above statement quoted from your original question, in the protest hearing, they have just 'convicted' themselves by saying that no overlap was apparent at the zone.

John
Mar 27, 2017, 02:06 PM
Registered User
(e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

As it is close wether or not blue obtained an overlap before red enters the zone there is surely reasonable doubt.
Mar 27, 2017, 02:16 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
(e) is always the challenge. Is it the outside boat claiming 'no overlap' or the inside boat claiming 'overlap'? That is the question!

In this case the Protest committee would look at the positions of the boats from well before the zone and would find that Red was clear ahead, and that Blue to gain mark room would be claiming a late overlap - so the onus falls on Blue to present compelling evidence.

But Blue says that there was no apparent overlap at the zone, and is claiming her room based on an incorrect understanding of the rules - and that is a good way to lose in the protest room.

John
Mar 27, 2017, 02:17 PM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychosis
(e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

As it is close wether or not blue obtained an overlap before red enters the zone there is surely reasonable doubt.
This rule is written for boats that are going different speeds, and overlap is either achieved or broken somewhere around the first boat's entry to the zone. It suggests that whatever situation occurred (overlap or not) at 7 and 6 and 5 lengths, shall be assumed for 4 lengths.


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