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Mar 09, 2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post
Hi Waboats.

Sorry but you still do not have it right.

First, I never said that App E modifies R 30.1.

The only reference to going round the end is if R30.1 is in effect.

If R 30.1 is NOT in effect, there is no rule specifying how to return to restart.

The 'OR' that you keep referring to (in E.5) only has relevance if R 30.1 is invoked.

John
John

And that is exactly what I am suggesting..

"OR" has 6 conjuctions... Simple English Language...

Quote:

To suggest that only one possibility can be realized, excluding one or the other:
To suggest the inclusive combination of alternatives:
To suggest a refinement of the first clause:
To suggest a restatement or "correction" of the first part of the sentence:
To suggest a negative condition:
To suggest a negative alternative without the use of an imperative (see use of and):
In this instance it is clearly a "combination of alternatives"


That aside.. Appendix E does amend 29.1.. And in doing so it does not in any way Invoke a Penalty or specify how a return is undertaken.. We agree

As you say ONLY "OR" 30.1 is referred & if not invoked then NO PENALTY is implied by the 29.1 amendment.. Again we agree,


So what Penalty IF ANY can be imposed by this 29.1 Rule when One is not stated & 30.1 is not invoked.. The Penalty Regime is clearly denoted in Rule 30 STARTING PENALTIES

Therefore it is incumbent of the Committee to Include such Penalty Ratification in the SI's to overcome the connundrum..

Not in SI's then it simply follows that 30.1 must be brought forward or No Penalty is applicable. Which as we know is a silly situation, ie No Penalty.

More than happy for you to List the Rule, & explain the situation by way of example & where 30.1 is not involved what Penalty is then incurred..

And How this is determined & Dip Starts allowed when clearly these have less or NO Reference within the rules..

Not sure who decides on Appendix E amendments but this is another one of the connundrums where they leave important aspects of the Rules Out & then make things up as they go along..
Last edited by waboats; Mar 09, 2013 at 09:31 PM.
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Mar 09, 2013, 09:33 AM
Registered User
If a boat is over the line:

Go back, you have no rights so be careful.

If 30.1 is in place you have to go around the ends...that is all.

If 30.3 is in place you are DSQ and have to leave the race course..that is all.

And again...a dip start is legal if no flags are raised or a hail is made, or the SI's don't state a change.....that is all.
Last edited by TedFlack; Mar 11, 2013 at 03:19 PM.
Mar 09, 2013, 07:27 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
Waboats,

What? Your post is more complicated than the rule book.

You are making this stuff way more complicated than it need to be or is.

If a boat is over the line:

Go back, you have no rights so be careful.

If 30.1 is in place you have to go around the ends...that is all.

If 30.3 is in place you are DSQ and have to leave the race course..that is all.

And again...a dip start is legal if no flags are raised or a hail is made, or the SI's don't state a change.....that is all.

Where in the RULES does it state that DIP Starts are allowed..

30.1 is quite clear... Which Negate Dip Starts..

What is missing in 29.1 by the amendment of Appendix E..
Quote:

The flag shall be displayed until all such boats have sailed completely to the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions and have complied with rule 30.1 if it applies,

As Appendix E quite clearly states ONLY ONE option is available... 30.1 & if it's not then No other Penalty can be applied... SI's


IF I am wrong then please quote the actual rule & include the Appendix E amendment of 29.1...

I suspect a number have got confused by using & interchanging Big Boat Rules with Radio Sailing appendix E Requirements...
Last edited by waboats; Mar 10, 2013 at 04:56 AM.
Mar 10, 2013, 09:15 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Waboats.

What you are missing is that it is the absence of anything to the contrary that allows dip starts.

There is the possibility for a start without using any of R 30. _ ie a 'normal' start.

R30 is just an additional option for the RC to help control the behaviour of the fleet by adding 'starting penalties. R 30 is not compulsory.

Look at each item in R 30. Its starts out with "If the I flag . . .etc". So ask yourself, what if NO flag listed in R 30 is flying?

If 30.1 is not in effect, then a dip start satisfies the definition of 'start' and the requirements of R 28.2 Sailing the Course (the string rule).

Under the definition of 'start', once a boat has dipped below the line, and then comes across the line from below, in the direction of the first mark, she has met the requirements of the definition and sailing the course.

Now, if R 30.1 is in effect, an additional requirement is added to go around the end.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Mar 10, 2013 at 09:26 AM.
Mar 10, 2013, 09:54 AM
Registered User
AA5BY's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by triumphjon View Post
this sound far to political for me , this idea of rules takes away the fun element of the sailing . i prefer the try to avoid other boats and if boats do collide its a simple " sorry " between the two skippers and we carry on sailing .
That sounds like the rule our local Hobie fleet adopted... Rule #1, no boat shall carry a protest flag.

It wasn't that we sailed free-for-all, we tried to observe race rules but protest were disallowed in the attempt to keep it all less serious... and I'd argue that it worked.
Mar 10, 2013, 06:40 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post
Hi Waboats.

What you are missing is that it is the absence of anything to the contrary that allows dip starts.

There is the possibility for a start without using any of R 30. _ ie a 'normal' start.

R30 is just an additional option for the RC to help control the behaviour of the fleet by adding 'starting penalties. R 30 is not compulsory.

Look at each item in R 30. Its starts out with "If the I flag . . .etc". So ask yourself, what if NO flag listed in R 30 is flying?

If 30.1 is not in effect, then a dip start satisfies the definition of 'start' and the requirements of R 28.2 Sailing the Course (the string rule).

Under the definition of 'start', once a boat has dipped below the line, and then comes across the line from below, in the direction of the first mark, she has met the requirements of the definition and sailing the course.

Now, if R 30.1 is in effect, an additional requirement is added to go around the end.

John
John

I don't think I am missing anything.

If what you are saying is true then anything is possible..

Appendix E, E3.5, merley amends Rule 29.1 (Individual Recall) to allow for a Hail instead of a Flag). It also removes certain other aspects but IT DOES NOT provide for Alternatives.. ( refer above for Quted E3.5 amendment)

E3.6 & E3.7 deal with the other subdivisions of Rule 29, ie General Recall (29.2) & Black Flag (30.3)

RULE 30 STARTING PENALTIES is always at play.. As are Rule 18 and many others, some amended and others unchanged.

Dip Starts are as much allowed as NO PENALTY..

You stated "R30 is just an additional option for the RC to help control the behaviour of the fleet by adding 'starting penalties. R 30 is not compulsory" & Look at each item in R 30. Its starts out with "If the I flag . . .etc". So ask yourself, what if NO flag listed in R 30 is flying?

Well the answer to that the answer is simple... R30 is always at play & is the Only Penalty that can be applied (amended by Sailing Instructions) within the Rules..

If not then NO PENALTY is applicable as the Rules only allow for R30 to deal with Startng Penalties. Nowhere else.

R30 is always at play at the Start.. That is why Radio Sailing adopts the Dip Start ... ITS a STARING PENALTY (R30)...

Is you don't believe so then Please quote the rule (as your support) as I have requested.

Failing that I can but assume that I am correct & your opinion is merely derived from acceptance of the practice of Dip Starts rather than its' support within the rules..

Simple solution is if R30 is not at play then it must be covered in the SI's.. Ask the ISAF..


Quote:

Appendices When the rules of an appendix apply, they take precedence over any conflicting rules in Parts 1–7 and the Definitions. Each appendix is identified by a letter. A reference to a rule in an appendix will contain the letter and the rule number (for example, ‘rule A1’). The letters I, O and Q are not used to designate appendices in this book.

Changes to the Rules The prescriptions of a national authority, class rules or the sailing instructions may change a racing rule only as permitted in rule 86.
Mar 10, 2013, 08:07 PM
Registered User
...
Last edited by TedFlack; Mar 11, 2013 at 03:19 PM.
Mar 10, 2013, 08:15 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Waboats.

I will respond to sensible questions to the best of my ability.

I will not respond to rubbish.

I have no interest in engaging in pointless arguments with you.

This thread is intended to help sailors develop a better understanding of the rules. Your input does not serve that purpose and just the opposite is likely to alienate others.

Regretfully

John
Mar 10, 2013, 09:03 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post
Waboats.

I will respond to sensible questions to the best of my ability.

I will not respond to rubbish.

I have no interest in engaging in pointless arguments with you.

This thread is intended to help sailors develop a better understanding of the rules. Your input does not serve that purpose and just the opposite is likely to alienate others.

Regretfully

John
JOhn

And that is your opinion..

What you are progressing is your opinion over all others.. You put yourself out there as a Guru or some such.. So address the Rules as they are written..

Within the body of the Rules you have not provided for example & support to your opinion.

If you wish to use Lay Terms then do so consistently.. Not as you have done so far..

That is the problem with Radio Sailors at the Lakeside.. Like to Mouth The Rules with Authority but in the end when challenged they have little support from within the Rules..


DIP STARTS have NO SUPPORT from within the rules unless written into the Sailing Instructions (SI's).. Simple as That.

If You Disagree show where within the Rules this exists rather than just Your Opinion...

You put yourself out there as an Authority but when challenged the support from within the Rules is lacking...

If you wish to make it simple then Provide for the Rule (as it is written ) & explain the alternatives in Lay Terms.. Not provide for ONE Example, which can be quite a shallow interpretation..


You know perfectly well on this occasion I am correct, hence YOUR lack of Example & Quotation from within the Rules.

I didn't write the Rules.. I like every other sailor must abide by them.. But I certianly don't have to abide by Opinions & Personal Slants.

RULE 30 is always at play in RRS.. Deal with It & Its' intention.. Return via the Extensions unless specified in the SI's..
Last edited by waboats; Mar 10, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
Mar 10, 2013, 09:16 PM
Registered User
...
Last edited by TedFlack; Mar 11, 2013 at 03:18 PM.
Mar 10, 2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
Ok, now you have turned the discussion personal Mr Waboats, I have reported your attack to the Moderator.
Ted

I have not turned it personal. I have merely responded to the Personal Insult that suggests I am speaking Rubbish. And not the first occasion.

I have always maintained a FULL Reference to the Rules & quoted these appropriately.

Others who put themselves out there as an authority are requested to do Likewise.. Not attempt to Bully & Persuade because they are perceived to have such an authority by many..

My position is formed on the Rules as written. I may disagree with the Rule but that is something out of my control, as I must address the rules as they are written.

Apendix E is a connundrum & has not been written appropriately for Radio Sailing (My Opinion). It could & should be done better..

E3.5 should simply remove the Flag references & replace with Hailing... From there the issue goes away.. But unfortunate as it is, the amendment is very poorly constructed. Resulting in some observing parts of the Change & then wanting to revert back to the Original Rule (now changed by the Appendix E amendment) when it does not suit, which cannot & should not be done..

Provide the Rule in Question then supply the Interpretation & Explanation in line with that Rule..

Otherwise it is Raffety's Rules & we make it up as we go along..
Last edited by waboats; Mar 10, 2013 at 11:54 PM.
Mar 11, 2013, 10:52 AM
Kevin Gault
poltergeist's Avatar
RRS 30.1 is in effect "If flag I has been displayed"

E3.8(b) replaces flag signals with oral hails for radio sailing

...simple as that...
Mar 11, 2013, 12:00 PM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
Observation and comment: While I strongly support rules and discussion - I am wondering just how many new sailors have just been laid to the wayside by the earlier discussion? Everyone has the ability to read and interpret the rules on their own. Questions that arise can be discussed and should be. Posted sailing instructions confirm/deny any "questionable" areas and purpose of skipper's meeting is to find out about any changes or "local" rules.

Unfortunately - this is one aspect of sailing that remains a very "DRY" subject (pun intended) and remains important for those who race. Too bad when a discussion/disagreement reaches a point where casual racers begin rolling their eyes and questioning why they considered the hobby/sport ! In the end, the decision is made by the protest committee if the issue is taken to that level. Because certain actions are not specifically stated/"supported" within the rules, does not automatically make them illegal. Refer to sailing instructions first, and ask the RD at skipper's meeting, if still in doubt.

JMHO - Dick
Mar 11, 2013, 03:15 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
Observation and comment: While I strongly support rules and discussion - I am wondering just how many new sailors have just been laid to the wayside by the earlier discussion? Everyone has the ability to read and interpret the rules on their own. Questions that arise can be discussed and should be. Posted sailing instructions confirm/deny any "questionable" areas and purpose of skipper's meeting is to find out about any changes or "local" rules.

Unfortunately - this is one aspect of sailing that remains a very "DRY" subject (pun intended) and remains important for those who race. Too bad when a discussion/disagreement reaches a point where casual racers begin rolling their eyes and questioning why they considered the hobby/sport ! In the end, the decision is made by the protest committee if the issue is taken to that level. Because certain actions are not specifically stated/"supported" within the rules, does not automatically make them illegal. Refer to sailing instructions first, and ask the RD at skipper's meeting, if still in doubt.

JMHO - Dick
Yep!!!
Mar 11, 2013, 07:10 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by poltergeist View Post
RRS 30.1 is in effect "If flag I has been displayed"

E3.8(b) replaces flag signals with oral hails for radio sailing

...simple as that...
Not Quite..

E3.8(b).. Yes Change Visual to Verbal..


29.1 is Out, changed significantly & has been replaced by E3.5


Sailing Instructions are the way to overcome the problems with some of the inconsistencies of the Appendix E amendments.

That is All..


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