Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 4 - RC Groups
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Mar 07, 2013, 09:24 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWAL
Regarding the Observers duties unless specified in the relevant SI's can an Observer ask a competitor to retire following an alleged rule infringement. If no other competitor witnessed or protested this alleged action which only the Observer saw? Also, it appears that in this situation the competitor involved has no course to seek redress, the Observer is judge and jury.
A simple scenario for clarity would be a competitor who believes they completed a race in full compliance with the rules. However, an Observer asks the competitor to retire after the race has finished as they observed the competitor missing a mark of the course. The Observer is the only person to notice this alleged infringement.
Can an observer ask a competitor to retire? - No. Observer reports to Race officer, who should file protest. Observer is witness. The Protest committee hears the evidence and decides if a rule was broken and assigns any penalty.
E.5 covers observers duties and says

E.5.1.c At the end of a heat, observers shall report to the race committee all unresolved incidents, and any failure to sail the course as required by rule 28.

Redress is covered in the rules and may only be obtained if the conditions for redress were met.

Missing a mark is a bit complex. Missing the mark breaks R 28 - Sailing the course. But when do you break the rule? At the time, or when you round the next mark, or when you finish? If a competitor, Race Official or observers hails "You missed the mark" - are they giving outside help? If you called "Protest" at a the time of the incident, are you helping the competitor that they have done something wrong and should correct it?

This has been covered in a new rule R 61.1.a.c

61.1.a.(3) if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing
the course, she need not hail or display a red flag but she
shall inform the other boat before that boat finishes or at
the first reasonable opportunity after she finishes;


So now informing a boat that you are protesting them (for missing a mark) while still racing, will not be considered 'outside help'. It protects the hailing boat. And the hailing boat does not (should not) have to tell the hailed boat the reason at the time of the hail.

John
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Mar 07, 2013, 09:43 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWAL
Start line Umpire, Observer or Race Officer (not sure which is the correct title?) Re-calls a competitor but to my mind then goes on to give outside assistance. Surely 98 shouldn't have been given this added verbal assistance about their position and not re-starting correctly.
Under big boat rules, over early is signified by hoisting a code flag X and a sound signal. When the boat returns to the pre-start side, the committee lowers the flag. So there is feedback to help the boat start correctly.

In RC sailing the procedure is to hail " Recall (sail number)". There is no defined procedure to match lowering the flag, but frequently we hear "all clear' to signify that all boats have started correctly.

So the Race officer in the video calling that the boat has not yet returned is the equivalent to the big boat committee not lowering the flag and is permissible.
Last edited by hiljoball; Mar 07, 2013 at 10:16 AM.
Mar 07, 2013, 12:17 PM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
Thanks for all the advice and knowledge I will try not to be so lazy in the future and look up the answers myself but then we wouldn't be having this discussion!

To quote you:
In RC sailing the procedure is to hail " Recall (sail number)". There is no defined procedure to match lowering the flag, but frequently we hear "all clear' to signify that all boats have started correctly.

I agree totally with this principle but in this actual case the start line official also jumps the gun so to speak and literally tells the competitor to go back again for the second time. He recalled 98 for being on the course side at the start correctly but surely shouldn't have said anything further until 98 had started correctly and then called "all Clear". Telling a competitor that they haven't cleared the line after not starting properly for the second time is very helpful indeed, practically assistance

Perhaps the proper solution would have been if the line official had re-called 98 again for the second failed start.
Last edited by FWAL; Mar 07, 2013 at 12:23 PM. Reason: thinking out loud
Mar 07, 2013, 08:44 PM
Registered User
So now if you do not avoid contact when you are the ROW boat, and don't cause damage you are exonerated??

14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.
However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat
is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does
not cause damage or injury.
Mar 07, 2013, 09:22 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Ted,

Basically yes, that is the way I read it - and it is not new - it has been that way for several editions of the rules.

But hitting another boat is not a good idea - if there is contact, one of you will be DSQ - and it might be you - if the protest committee see the situation differently than you.

John
Mar 07, 2013, 10:03 PM
Registered User
John,

I am really messed up on this one. I was sure that if a ROW boat could keep clear they were at fault if they didn't....avoidable contact.

Thanks,

Ted
Mar 08, 2013, 04:17 AM
Registered User
coolmobility's Avatar
In the 'over the line early' video, shouldn't the 98 boat have had to sail round a pin end to restart, not just sail back over the start line for a 'clear start'?
Mar 08, 2013, 04:47 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmobility
In the 'over the line early' video, shouldn't the 98 boat have had to sail round a pin end to restart, not just sail back over the start line for a 'clear start'?
I have become confused why Dip Starts have become all the fashion in Radio Sailing, Are they really a sufficient penalty for jumping the start..


Quote:

29 RECALLS
29.1 Individual Recall

When at a boat’s starting signal any part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound. The flag shall be displayed until all such boats have sailed completely to the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions and have complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, but no later than four minutes after the starting signal or one minute before any later starting signal, whichever is earlier. If rule 30.3 applies this rule does not.




30 STARTING PENALTIES
30.1 I Flag Rule


If flag I has been displayed, and any part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or one of its extensions during the last minute before her starting signal, she shall thereafter sail from the course side across an extension to the prestart side before starting.

I have only occasionally seen the Jump Start Procedure defined with a Return Via a Pin End Buoy in SI's.. If It's not there the Jumper usually return through the Fleet so long as he does not interfere (like that doesn't happen) & can recommence once his Hull & Equipment is fully behind the Start Line..

The Video showed how some like to cut a very fine line.. The Observer Pinged #98 & rightly so..

"the race committee shall promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat the hail as appropriate"


Appendix E once again greatly amends the content of the wording...

What is LEFT OUT allows for the Dip Start to be exploited..

NOT Sporting IMHO.. "she shall thereafter sail from the course side across an extension to the prestart side before starting." actually requires a return from outside the pre-start line (the extensions) & a return via one of the PIN end buoys of the Start Line..

Reasoning.. The Buoys Mark the Pre-Start Line.. Extensions exist beyond this so as to also define the course side of this line...


Quote:

E3.5 Individual Recall
Rule 29.1 is changed to
:

When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course side of the starting line, or when she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat the hail as appropriate.


I have always beent taught THE RULE Should Speak for Itself... Otherwise it is not a very well written rule...
Last edited by waboats; Mar 08, 2013 at 05:56 AM.
Mar 08, 2013, 10:21 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmobility
In the 'over the line early' video, shouldn't the 98 boat have had to sail round a pin end to restart, not just sail back over the start line for a 'clear start'?
It depends upon which starting penalty is in effect.

In big boat racing, there is a normal start and three starting penalty variations, but for RC sailing Appendix E takes one away.

In big boats, flags are used to signal which starting penalty rule is in effect. In RC, we allow the RO to hail to tell us, but this may be modified in the sailing instructions.

R30 lays out the starting penalties.
If no special flag is being flown, then a dip start is quite legal, so is a dip restart if called over.

If the I flag is indicated or R30.1 is hailed by the RO, then if you are called over early, you must go around the end of the line to start - no dip start after the starting signal.

If the Z flag or R30.2 is indicated then you are not allowed in the triangle between the start marks and the first rounding mark in the last minute. This is the rule that is cancelled by new Appendix E.

Finally - the black death!, R 30.3 the black flag rule. If you are in that triangle formed by the start marks and the first turning mark, in the last minute before the start or called over early - then you must leave the sailing area - you are out of that heat and are scored a black flak DSQ.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Mar 09, 2013 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Correction on 30.2
Mar 08, 2013, 09:00 PM
Suspended Account
John

Somewhat confused by your explanation..

Yes Big Boats use Flags.. Radio Sailing uses "Hails or Voice" (if you prefer)...

I do like to see the Quoted Rule in front of me when making reference..

Appendix E in reference to 29.1

Quote:
E3.5 Individual Recall

Rule 29.1 is changed to:

When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course side of the starting line, or when she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat the hail as appropriate.
Therefore reference & direction is Given to 30.1 "ONLY" as you rightly point out...

Quote:

30 STARTING PENALTIES
30.1 I Flag Rule

If flag I has been displayed, and any part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or one of its extensions during the last minute before her starting signal, she shall thereafter sail from the course side across an extension to the prestart side before starting.
I find that the Flag on display is irrelevant in regards to the explanations & In Radio Sailing the Hail is sufficient as per the amendment by Appendix E..

To COMPLY with 30.1


The use of the word "OR" has provided for Distinct alternatives & seperation as to "STARTING LINE" and "Extensions"..


It is Clear therfore that a BOAT must Return to the proper Start Position via AN EXTENSION of the Pre-Start Line.

And unless Dip Starts are allowed in the SI's those not meeting 30.1 (via Extension) or the SI's should be disqualified as not having complied with 30.1..
Mar 08, 2013, 09:06 PM
Registered User
...
Last edited by TedFlack; Mar 11, 2013 at 04:20 PM.
Mar 08, 2013, 11:05 PM
Silly Old Fart
CaptainBit's Avatar
In the start procedures of the regattas for which I am PRO, I run them like this.
All starts are dip starts with a start line of sufficient length to allow clearance for all starters.
UNLESS.....there is a general recall on the first start.
At which time I bring in the "Round the Ends Rule" for the next attempt.
If another "General Recall" is called, we then go to the "Black Flag" rule, which means anyone over the line in the final minute is DSQ.
It seems to work well as most sensible skippers become a little gun shy when faced with disqualification.
Mar 08, 2013, 11:23 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Waboats,

R 29.1 as modified in App E3.5. describes how to hail individual recalls - it does not specify how to return to restart.

Only if 30.1 is in effect does the wording (in 30.1) require to go around the end.

In the absence of R 30.1, the boat on the course side of the line is free to return and restart without qualification - so a dip is allowed.

John
Mar 09, 2013, 01:48 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Waboats,

R 29.1 as modified in App E3.5. describes how to hail individual recalls - it does not specify how to return to restart.

Only if 30.1 is in effect does the wording (in 30.1) require to go around the end.

In the absence of R 30.1, the boat on the course side of the line is free to return and restart without qualification - so a dip is allowed.

John
John

I would have to disagreee..

Appendix E actually deals with How & When...

This is the Actual Appendix E extract...


E3.5 Individual Recall
Rule 29.1 is changed to:

When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course side of the starting line, or when she must comply with rule 30.1,

the race committee shall promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat the hail as appropriate .(How)


Apendex E.. DOES NOT amend 30.1

It merely defines the procedure of Hailing (How) & under what circumstances (when)


As 30.1 is NOT amended then the rule is applicable as it is written within the body of the rules.... As such the Extensions should be used. Pin Ends if you like..

The rules in themselves stand alone & are quite clear IMHO when read appropriately & in turn..


Like I said It is more what is Left Out that enables the manipulation of the rules & again IMHO not sporting..

The simple Laymans Intention & Interpretation of 30.1 was to ensure sufficient penalty is in place to avoid & Deter Early Starters & Jumpers

Stuff Things Up & You have to go the Long Way around to start proper.. A proper penalty..
Last edited by waboats; Mar 09, 2013 at 05:41 AM.
Mar 09, 2013, 09:19 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Waboats.

Sorry but you still do not have it right.

First, I never said that App E modifies R 30.1.

The only reference to going round the end is if R30.1 is in effect.

If R 30.1 is NOT in effect, there is no rule specifying how to return to restart.

The 'OR' that you keep referring to (in E.5) only has relevance if R 30.1 is invoked.

John


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