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Mar 05, 2013, 08:17 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
What happens when two boats collide and neither calls a foul. Because they sail on the same club. Can someone else call for a penalty turn ?
Another boat in that heat, witnessing the incident can protest both.(R 60.1)

The Protest committee after determining the facts should DSQ the boat that broke the rule leading to the incident. The Protest committee may also DSQ the boat that did not protest and if no other rule applies, use R 2.

Some underlying principles of racing are
1. sportsmanship - if you break a rule, take the penalty - whether you are protested or not
2. If there is a contact, someone broke at least one rule- so you must protest the other boat or take a penalty.
3. by starting in a race, you agree to be bound by the rules of racing.

The failure to protest may suggest that one or more boats do not know the rules for this incident. Having a protest hearing is an excellent teaching tool and learing experience. Holding an open protest hearing, where other racers can listen in; expands the learning process.

John

John
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Mar 05, 2013, 08:43 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike
Another incident on Saturday.

Port and Starboard. Port boat tacks under the starboard boat and leaves 1/3 of boat length between the 2, port tack boat then proceeds to point up and starts to hail windward boat (starboard boat) to move up.
Regardless of contact or no contact does the port boat have any rights?
From your description, the sImple answer is probably Yes!

As Port approaches Stbd, P must keep clear, R 10.
As P head up to head to wind, she is still on P. So still R 10
After she passes head to wind until she is on her close hauled course, she is tacking and must stay clear. R 13.
Once P completes her tack and is now Stbd/Leeward, she must briefly provide room for S/Windward under R 15.
After R 15 is satisfied, Stbd/Windward must keep clear of the new leeward boat under R 11.

So once P completed her tack and became Stbd/Leeward, she was a third of a boat length from Stbd/Windward. That sounds like she satisfied R 15, and from now on, Stbd/Windward must stay clear under R 11. Stbd/Leeward can now start to pinch up and Stbd/Windwird must stay clear.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Mar 05, 2013 at 09:00 AM.
Mar 05, 2013, 10:10 AM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
Thanks John
Mar 05, 2013, 03:28 PM
Registered User
8387mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
From your description, the sImple answer is probably Yes!

As Port approaches Stbd, P must keep clear, R 10.
As P head up to head to wind, she is still on P. So still R 10
After she passes head to wind until she is on her close hauled course, she is tacking and must stay clear. R 13.
Once P completes her tack and is now Stbd/Leeward, she must briefly provide room for S/Windward under R 15.
After R 15 is satisfied, Stbd/Windward must keep clear of the new leeward boat under R 11.

So once P completed her tack and became Stbd/Leeward, she was a third of a boat length from Stbd/Windward. That sounds like she satisfied R 15, and from now on, Stbd/Windward must stay clear under R 11. Stbd/Leeward can now start to pinch up and Stbd/Windwird must stay clear.

John
Thanks John thought that was the case
Mar 06, 2013, 06:57 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Another boat in that heat, witnessing the incident can protest both.(R 60.1)


John
John

Now the Connundrum that is 60.1

Appendix E actually does away with the wording "SAW"

60.1 deals with 2 specific aspects ... 1. involved in 2. or saw the incident;


Quote:


E6 PROTESTS AND REQUESTS FOR REDRESS
E6.1 Right to Protest

Rule 60.1 is changed to:

A boat may
(a) protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2, 3 or 4 unless she was scheduled to sail in that heat; or
(b) request redress.

However, a boat or competitor may not protest for an alleged breach of rules E2 or E3.7.

The appendix E override appears to only deal with One Aspect... scheduled to sail in that heat

Does this by its' very ommission (removal of Saw) remove the right of another skipper to protest other boats when it is not directly involved in an incident...

If Not then whay has this aspect been removed?

My understanding was that a Heat can constitue a Multi Fleet Arrangement & as Skippers may race in different Fleets they remain within the Same Heat, they could protest from Shore without a Boat on the water. At the same time have a vastly different angle & perspective of the incident, with no boat to operate..

.. Hence the removal of the word "SAW"..


Little Odd that such an important aspect of Rule 60 has been overlooked or removed from the Appendix E that governs Radio Sailing..




60.1 prior to Appendix E override..
Quote:

60 RIGHT TO PROTEST; RIGHT TO REQUEST REDRESS OR RULE 69 ACTION

60.1 A boat may

(a) protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident; or

(b) request redress.
Last edited by waboats; Mar 06, 2013 at 07:05 AM.
Mar 06, 2013, 09:27 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Good question Waboats.

It looks like they were more trying to define who could/could not protest in a multi-heat event - as this is unique to RC sailing.

John
Mar 06, 2013, 05:57 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Good question Waboats.

It looks like they were more trying to define who could/could not protest in a multi-heat event - as this is unique to RC sailing.

John
John

I think that is absolutely correct.. Radio Sailing is So Unique that so many of the Rules need clarification and/or amendment..

Mostly the SI's deal with the connundrums but on this occasion (60.1) it really comes down to the decisions of the PRO's or Race Officer on the day.

Whenever racing I tend to avoid calling others (when I am not involved) as it comes down to an integrity thing for the individuals involved..

John
Mar 06, 2013, 06:06 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
Besides the folks sailing, can anyone else call out rule violations ?
Mar 06, 2013, 06:28 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
Besides the folks sailing, can anyone else call out rule violations ?
Gpzy

Only those directly involved in the event/heat/race...

SPEACTATORS & Outsiders cannot Call Violations but they can say as they please at the lakeside which in turn could influence an observers eye to a area of incident.

Generally Spectators are kept outside the Control area to avoid such influences & distractions.. Not always mind you, especially when there is a large & unfenced control area..
Mar 06, 2013, 08:32 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
Besides the folks sailing, can anyone else call out rule violations ?
Rule 60.1, 60.2 and 60.3 say who may protest and under what conditions. Also as modified in Appendix E 6.1.

So competitors in the heat, Race officers, and the Protest Committee may protest.

In addition,Appendix E 5 provides for Observers and Umpires. This is invoked based on the SI for an event.

Umpires are normally only used in major International championship regattas. Umpiring is described in the document Addendum Q on the IRSA website
http://www.radiosailing.org/main/documents/racing.htm

Observers do not protest. Observers may call contact (between boats or boats and marks), but not protest, however should also monitor protests between boats too, and observe if penalty turns have been taken. They report to the race officer after the heat and identify contacts and protests where penalty turns are outstanding - and the Race officer may file protests and the observer will be called as a witness.

Umpires do not need to protest, they may call penalties directly.

John
Mar 07, 2013, 04:33 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Rule 60.1, 60.2 and 60.3 say who may protest and under what conditions. Also as modified in Appendix E 6.1.

So competitors in the heat, Race officers, and the Protest Committee may protest.

In addition,Appendix E 5 provides for Observers and Umpires. This is invoked based on the SI for an event.

Umpires are normally only used in major International championship regattas. Umpiring is described in the document Addendum Q on the IRSA website
http://www.radiosailing.org/main/documents/racing.htm

Observers do not protest. Observers may call contact (between boats or boats and marks), but not protest, however should also monitor protests between boats too, and observe if penalty turns have been taken. They report to the race officer after the heat and identify contacts and protests where penalty turns are outstanding - and the Race officer may file protests and the observer will be called as a witness.

Umpires do not need to protest, they may call penalties directly.

John
Regarding the Observers duties unless specified in the relevant SI's can an Observer ask a competitor to retire following an alleged rule infringement. If no other competitor witnessed or protested this alleged action which only the Observer saw? Also, it appears that in this situation the competitor involved has no course to seek redress, the Observer is judge and jury.
A simple scenario for clarity would be a competitor who believes they completed a race in full compliance with the rules. However, an Observer asks the competitor to retire after the race has finished as they observed the competitor missing a mark of the course. The Observer is the only person to notice this alleged infringement.
Mar 07, 2013, 05:04 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
Start line Umpire, Observer or Race Officer (not sure which is the correct title?) Re-calls a competitor but to my mind then goes on to give outside assistance. Surely 98 shouldn't have been given this added verbal assistance about their position and not re-starting correctly.
Here's a very short vid of the incident

98 start! (0 min 38 sec)
Mar 07, 2013, 08:06 AM
Nirvana 38, Seawind 178
seabee CE's Avatar
I wouldn't have a problem with the start judge telling him he hadn't cleared the line, sometimes in RC racing it is hard to judge positions depending on where you are standing, and to me it is about the racing and comradery. I don't want to beat someone because of something like that, I want to out sail them.
Mar 07, 2013, 08:13 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabee CE
I wouldn't have a problem with the start judge telling him he hadn't cleared the line, sometimes in RC racing it is hard to judge positions depending on where you are standing, and to me it is about the racing and comradery. I don't want to beat someone because of something like that, I want to out sail them.
I understand totally what you're saying. However, what about the Observer who doesn't say a word until after the race. If you're going to offer advice and help during one element of the race why not the whole race?
Mar 07, 2013, 08:23 AM
Nirvana 38, Seawind 178
seabee CE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWAL
I understand totally what you're saying. However, what about the Observer who doesn't say a word until after the race. If you're going to offer advice and help during one element of the race why not the whole race?
The role of the official observers should be clearly outlined before the racing starts, then this all becomes moot. I prefer skippers to be informed immediatly, but that is just my preference.


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