Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 2 - RC Groups
Thread Tools
Feb 19, 2013, 10:25 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats
Opposite Tacks @ the Marks..

The Cause of Almost ALL disputes on the water..

How many times does a Port Tack Boat fetching the mark get called for an infringement..

if a weather mark is to be rounded to port (which is normally used), then the port tack boat is never fetching the mark - for a port rounding, you have to be on stbd to fetch the mark. If the weather mark is rounded to stbd, then a port tack boat fetching the mark has to stay clear of stbd tack boats. I

In so far as a Boat is Clear Ahead when entering the Zone although on Port Tack, it merely has to Gybe around the mark to continue..

But how many times do we hear the Call for Protests..

Why, because the Gybe is suddenly turned into a tack in the Zone and tehn we hear the calls for 18,3

If a boat is gybing around a mark, it is a down wind mark. If the mark is to be rounded to port, then a boat approaching on port gybe does not need to gybe to round the mark, - just harden up on port.

If it is a down wind mark, then 18.3 would not apply, 18.4 would apply. If the boat has already passed the down wind mark and hardened up to close hauled and then tacks, they are already on the next leg and mark room no longer applies see R 18.1.c. If they suddenly tack in front of boats still approaching the mark, then R 13 would apply -



The Port Boat was never Overlapped (Clear Ahead) & it seems that lots of R/C Skippers then get confused as to when & at what specific instance 18.3 & 18.4 apply..

18.3 applies normally at a weather mark, and 18.4 normally applies at a down wind mark

At the Marks) what constitues a Tack as opposed to a Gybe

Tacks and gybes are definitions - the definition does not change because of the proximity of a mark.
Waboats, I found your post very confusing and am trying to figure out what specific event you are questioning - it would help if you could provide a diagram and a description of the facts of the incident. You have some statements that seem to relate to a weather mark, and some for an offwind mark. Also is the mark rounding to port or to stbd.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Feb 19, 2013 at 10:31 PM.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Feb 19, 2013, 10:56 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Waboats, I found your post very confusing and am trying to figure out what specific event you are questioning -John
John

This is exactly my intention...

RRS are not a simple thing for anybody never mind those that are entering the sport.

The unfortunate thing that "I" see when discussing "Mark Roundings" every example & suggestion only ever covers the Windward mark..

Which is questionable & a lot of the time confuses others into believing the same situations apply to every mark & therefore the same rule & principle.. Do they..

It would be my suggestion that when Mark Rounding is discussed or written it should be clear as to which marks are being discussed & which Rule apply. But also an inclusion of the situation at each other mark...


And to add salt to the discussion the current 2013-2016 do not provide a definition of Gybe or Tack..

The first mention of GYBE comes in at Rule 18.4. & Tacking at Rule 18.2..



But in the preamble

Other words
and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use.




The simple problem at almost every Radio Sailing regatta is there is the assumption that all skippers are equally knowledgeable of the RRS & are expected to act accordingly..

Bringing with it the extremes of bad sportmanship & bad behaviour...

Quote:
BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

That said..

However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.

The RoW Boat even on Port Tack (windward mark) remains the RoW Boat & entitled to Mark Room until such time as it passess Head to Wind...
Feb 20, 2013, 08:15 AM
Registered User
......
Last edited by TedFlack; Feb 20, 2013 at 10:37 AM.
Feb 20, 2013, 10:56 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats
John

This is exactly my intention...

I wrote that I find your post confusing and you write that is your intention - to confuse! How is that helpful to the forum - don't answer. It is retorical,

RRS are not a simple thing for anybody never mind those that are entering the sport.

The unfortunate thing that "I" see when discussing "Mark Roundings" every example & suggestion only ever covers the Windward mark..

That is just not true. But if you have a specific question about a single situation - ask away - but please keep each post to a single incident for clarity.

Which is questionable & a lot of the time confuses others into believing the same situations apply to every mark & therefore the same rule & principle.. Do they..

No, the rules can change at a windward mark vs a leeward mark. But the difference is laid out in R 18.1 which says where R 18 does NOT apply. The R 18.3 applies where a tack is involved, which suggests a weather mark, and R 18.4 covers gybing, which suggests a leeward mark. There can be some unusual situations develop where a boat may pass the leeward mark and then tack back to clear the mark and by tacking in the zone, lose mark room rights due to 18.3. But these are unusual and infrequent.

It would be my suggestion that when Mark Rounding is discussed or written it should be clear as to which marks are being discussed & which Rule apply.
By all means. But it is up to yuo to state the situation and the type of mark rounding

But also an inclusion of the situation at each other mark...

No- ask different question with new fatcs


And to add salt to the discussion the current 2013-2016 do not provide a definition of Gybe or Tack..

The first mention of GYBE comes in at Rule 18.4. & Tacking at Rule 18.2..

I was wrong in my previous post, you are correct tack and gybe are not defined. But being on a tack is defined and tacking is clarified in R 13. There is no longer a description of a gybe - but you know very well what is a gybe.

But in the preamble

Other words
and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use.




The simple problem at almost every Radio Sailing regatta is there is the assumption that all skippers are equally knowledgeable of the RRS & are expected to act accordingly..

Bringing with it the extremes of bad sportmanship & bad behaviour...

That said..

However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.

The RoW Boat even on Port Tack (windward mark) remains the RoW Boat & entitled to Mark Room until such time as it passess Head to Wind...
There are three possible combinations at a weather mark to be rounded to port.
a) both boats approach on stbd - the boat clear ahead or the inside overlapped boat at the zone gets mark room
b) boats approach the mark on opposite tacks - R.18.1 says R 18 Mark room does not apply so we are left with R 10 Port keeps clear of stbd.
c)both boats approach the mark on port - the boat clear ahead or the inside overlapped boat at the zone get mark room - but as you said, loses mark room when they tack. Then is gets complicated because the other boat does not inherit mark room. Mark room gets reset for both boats when the second boat tacks - the relative positions after that tack sets who gets the new mark room and what limitations may apply.

Waboats, I will happily respond and try to help to 'single situation' questions, especially if accompanied by a diagram and a set of facts, but I will not respond to philosophical discussions and mixed situations.

John
Feb 20, 2013, 05:42 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Waboats, I will happily respond and try to help to 'single situation' questions, especially if accompanied by a diagram and a set of facts, but I will not respond to philosophical discussions and mixed situations.

John
John

And that is the RUB with RRS.. Always changing & evolving situations where rules are turned On & Off and changing from second to second.. So in effect a Mixed Situation is always on the water... Nothing is ever cut & dried..

A Pity the ISAF don't issue Diagrams with their 2013-2016 publication of The Rules..

RRS are based on words not pictuires.. Pity Really...

As you say things do get complicated... And unfortunately there are NO real avenues for skippers to Learn the rules or perhaps enage in Training Sessions prior to events occuring on the water.. At times it can be teh Blind leading the Blind...

The One Point I was making which you answered quite nicely

The RoW Boat even on Port Tack (windward mark) remains the RoW Boat & entitled to Mark Room until such time as it passess Head to Wind...
There are three possible combinations at a weather mark to be rounded to port.
a) both boats approach on stbd - the boat clear ahead or the inside overlapped boat at the zone gets mark room
b) boats approach the mark on opposite tacks - R.18.1 says R 18 Mark room does not apply so we are left with R 10 Port keeps clear of stbd.
c)both boats approach the mark on port - the boat clear ahead or the inside overlapped boat at the zone get mark room - but as you said, loses mark room when they tack. Then is gets complicated because the other boat does not inherit mark room. Mark room gets reset for both boats when the second boat tacks - the relative positions after that tack sets who gets the new mark room and what limitations may apply.


@ (b) I assume you mean 18.1(a) and/or (b)


Quote:
18 MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.

However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,


(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or

(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies.


And Lets Not complicate matters by adding in Starboard Roundings..
Feb 22, 2013, 09:23 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
For you rules junkies -

The ISAF Rules Q&A for 2013 - 2016 RRS is now available.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...5B14443%5D.pdf

Note that the 2009-2012 Q&A is no longer valid and the contents deleted
- presumably because the new RRS has clarified those issues.

There is some good reading in the cases included.

The 2013-2016 Case book is still not out (at lease I cannot find it
yet).

John
Feb 22, 2013, 05:16 PM
Suspended Account
ooops.. wrong thread...
Last edited by waboats; Feb 22, 2013 at 05:22 PM.
Mar 03, 2013, 01:59 PM
Registered User
How many turns should this guy do.
At the start coming from the course side trying to find a gap in the starting fleet.
None appears so tries to force one.
As windward boat he collides with one boat and drives that boat over the top of two others.
The two leeward boats end up tangled and our hero goes on to take a penalty turn for hitting one boat leaving the two tangled boats, who he never made contact with in his wake.
Mar 03, 2013, 02:38 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Superficially, this sounds like one incident - so one penalty turn for starters, however he also gained significant advantage - so one additional penalty turn. E 4.3.b

But if the two tangled boats are 'disabled' and retire, then she shall retire E.4.3.c

John
Mar 04, 2013, 05:20 PM
Registered User
this sound far to political for me , this idea of rules takes away the fun element of the sailing . i prefer the try to avoid other boats and if boats do collide its a simple " sorry " between the two skippers and we carry on sailing .
Mar 04, 2013, 09:07 PM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
Might work in an informal club gathering - but don't expect similar outlooks/courtesy if at a Regional or National event. Thus the reason to sail by the rules, regardless of event. Learn bad habits and carry them with you - then don't complain about "hard core" racers at other events. What really takes away the "fun element of sailing" encourages bad manners, damage to the property of others (perhaps significant $$$), hard feelings when the uneducated cause the damage to the person expecting to have the Right of Way until he gets clobbered. Just sayin' ......... it isn't political at all - it is simply the rules.
Mar 04, 2013, 09:49 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
What happens when two boats collide and neither calls a foul. Because they sail on the same club. Can someone else call for a penalty turn ?
Mar 04, 2013, 09:54 PM
Registered User
8387mike's Avatar
Another incident on Saturday.

Port and Starboard. Port boat tacks under the starboard boat and leaves 1/3 of boat length between the 2, port tack boat then proceeds to point up and starts to hail windward boat (starboard boat) to move up.
Regardless of contact or no contact does the port boat have any rights?
Mar 05, 2013, 01:35 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike

Port boat tacks under the starboard boat and leaves 1/3 of boat length between the 2,

port tack boat then proceeds to point up and starts to hail windward boat (starboard boat) to move up.


Regardless of contact or no contact does the port boat have any rights?

Port Tacked ??? Then's he/she is on Starbord

Confused by "port tack boat then proceeds to point up"

If she (Initial Port Tack boat) allowed sufficient room during the Tack for the other boat then where is the issue.

Both Starboard... Windward Leeward...

Did the Other Boat claim insufficient room to keep clear... Or the Initial Starboard boat had to alter course to avoid contact..

But maybe there is more to the story...

Devil in the Detail...
Mar 05, 2013, 07:07 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
What happens when two boats collide and neither calls a foul. Because they sail on the same club. Can someone else call for a penalty turn ?
Gpzy

Not a simple answer but essentially an Observer may call the contact & if it is written into the Sailing Instrcutions for a Regatta then they could apply Penalties as they deem appropriate.


Take the OZ MM SI's as an example.

Quote:
1.4 Any boat that infringes the rules must do a penalty turn (one tack & one gybe).

However, a minor contact where no boat has been disadvantaged may be
ignored if the infringed boat is happy to let both boats continue without calling for a penalty turn.
Racing takes place under the basic principle of sportsmanship. A ‘minor contact’ is hard to define, but a boat must not be significantly impeded by the unlawful actions of a fellow competitor, so if in doubt please take a penalty turn withoutbeing asked. We are aiming for fun, fair and friendly racing.

1.5 Appendix A (Parents) of these Sailing Instructions shall apply.
Appendix A states

Quote:
A2 AUTHORISED ACTIONS OF A PARENT

A2.1 A Parent may impose a penalty (a two turns penalty) if he observes an incident where a penalty turn was requested but not done, or an incident where no penalty was requested but the Parent considers one is appropriate. He may impose the penalty on either, or both boats involved.
A Parent may impose a further penalty on a boat that infringed a rule and did a penalty but still gained a significant advantage after taking that penalty. In both cases the Parent may call for either a one or two turn penalty.

A2.2 A Parent has the right to disqualify, give redress to, or expel a competitor.

A2.3 A Parent, or a fellow competitor, may inform a boat, at any time, that it has not sailed the correct course.
Under the RRS this would be called ‘outside assistance’ and not allowed.
By allowing this call to bemade MMI deem it as ‘advice freely available to all competitiors’ for the sake of these Sailing Instructions.
A2.4 Competitor’s complaints can be addressed to a Parent.

A2.5 A Parent’s decision is final and cannot be subject to appeal.

I use the MM SI's as an exaple where different rules & actions may be applied to a given event & which can at times change the strict compliance with RRS.



Like I said not a simple answer, but essentially the expectation would be;

Any boat that infringes the rules must do a penalty turn (one tack & one gybe).


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Question about the Brushless 2226/2300 KV Easysky motor question (dolphin/cessna) twincobra Micro Ready-to-Fly 0 Feb 11, 2013 12:49 AM
Discussion AMA ALES Rules Question Roger Rocket Electric Competition Soaring-F5J/ALES/e-Soaring 7 Feb 01, 2013 04:33 PM
Discussion I know, I know stupid question about about World Tech Hercules Helo drtuvoc Coaxial Helicopters 1 Jan 26, 2013 08:40 PM
Discussion question about this sail plane munen123 Electric Sailplanes 8 Dec 29, 2006 04:52 AM