Thread Tools
Feb 19, 2020, 06:17 PM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKaledonian
Thanks. If Yellow was still tacking at 8, could Yellow claim that Blue broke Rule 16, being ROW changing course towards the KC yacht which was mid tack?
At position 8, it appears as though Blue would pass astern of Yellow if Blue were to hold course and Blue would not need to take action to avoid Yellow. If Yellow was not at a close-hauled course at position 8, she would be required by rule 13 to keep clear of Blue. As Blue need take no action to avoid Yellow at 8, Yellow is keeping clear at that point.

As soon as Blue alters course between 8 and 9, she is required to give Yellow room to keep clear. It appears at that moment, that there would be no action Yellow could take to keep clear of Blue and therefore Blue would break rule 16. 1
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Feb 25, 2020, 12:06 AM
Sailor and Radio Ham

Downwind issue


Four boats are sailing abreast downwind. G is leeward of Y both on Port. R is leeward of B on Starboard. B hails Y that B is on Starboard and begins moving toward Y.

What is Yellow to do?
Last edited by RCLaser03; Feb 25, 2020 at 12:11 AM.
Feb 25, 2020, 03:27 AM
Registered User
ClayH's Avatar

Aggressive, quick luffing fake - bad sportsmanship?


I raced with a group of DF95 sailors this weekend that had a few guys that are known to be pretty aggressive in their luffing windward boats.

The example that I saw was two guys about 3 boat lengths from the windward mark, both on starboard about 18 inches apart, fully overlapped in light conditions.

All of a sudden the leeward boat slams the rudder to jerk the bow windward closing the gap to maybe 6 inches between the boats as the windward boat reacts quickly coming up. The leeward boat returned to his line to the mark, no incident occurred. It was basically a hard fake because he was getting bad air.

After the race I spoke to the skipper of the windward boat and he said that he had sailed with that guy before and knew that he was known to luff quickly without warning, so he was ready for it.

My question is how much communication should we expect in close racing situations? Is it ok to come up as quickly as you want without asking for room or should we expect some sort of sportsmanship here?

I watched a former national champion a couple of weeks ago basically coming up on multiple people in very light, tight racing just to clear out his competition. He would slowly come up at times when seeing who's boat is doing what was nearly impossible, then state( You're on me..protest). He didn't make any friends that day.

Should I call out guys that race like this or is it just part of the hobby?
Feb 25, 2020, 05:10 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLaser03
Four boats are sailing abreast downwind. G is leeward of Y both on Port. R is leeward of B on Starboard. B hails Y that B is on Starboard and begins moving toward Y.

What is Yellow to do?
A right of way boat is also an obstruction so she must hail green for room. Looks like she should have done so earlier.
Feb 25, 2020, 02:02 PM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLaser03
Four boats are sailing abreast downwind. G is leeward of Y both on Port. R is leeward of B on Starboard. B hails Y that B is on Starboard and begins moving toward Y.

What is Yellow to do?
Best option for yellow is to jybe and become starboard boat to green's port.
Feb 25, 2020, 04:16 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayH

Should I call out guys that race like this or is it just part of the hobby?
For your situations described, it sounds like R 16.1 would apply.
If the leeward boat altered course aggressively, but windward was able to stay clear, then no rule was broken. Where the skipper luffed slowly, then it sounds like he is giving room and complying with R 16.1, unless the windward boat was also restricted by yet another keep clear boat, in which case the room provided has to cover both boats responding.

For the diagram , if Blue alters course then R 16.1 applies, but as drawn, Blue is sailing straight and the boats are slowly converging. In this case R 16.1 does not apply. The onus is on Yellow to anticipate that she is about to become the meat in the sandwich - and gybe to stbd earlier, while there is still room. Yes, Yellow should hail Green to do something so that they may both avoid the ROW stbd gybe boats which are obstructions, under R 19. But R 20 hailing for room to tack does not apply as they are not on a beat.

John
Feb 25, 2020, 09:54 PM
Sailor and Radio Ham
Unfortunately, as we RC sailors know, it is not always easy to control what gybe the boat is on, especially on with light, shifty winds.

Blue was taking advantage of his Starboard Tack rights and forcing Y into G. G took advantage of G's leeward position to take Y into B.

If Y does gybe, then Y becomes a windward boat and still has to keep clear of B. Also, if Yellow's boom hits Blue than that is an instant foul.

When can Y tell G to stop forcing Y into B?

If Y does foul B because of G, can Y be exonerated?
Feb 25, 2020, 10:14 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
Thread OP
The way I see this situation is that Red and Blue on stbd are not breaking any rules, and the boats on port must keep clear.

The stbd tack boats are an obstruction to Yellow and Green and R 19.2 (b) applies.

(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the
inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she
has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.


So Green on the outside must give room to Yellow to avoid the obstruction - Blue. There is no prescribed hail, as R20 does not apply, but a hail from Yellow to Green to give room would be appropriate - "Hey Green, I've got two boats here on stbd and I need room to stay clear"

If Green does not respond, then Yellow protests Green.

As Green is not giving room to Yellow, Yellow may be exonerated under R 21.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Feb 25, 2020 at 10:18 PM. Reason: added suggested hail
Feb 26, 2020, 12:34 PM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Further, if the best option for Y is to gybe, but there's not enough room to swing the boom across, that's an indication that Y could have seen this coming and gybed earlier when there was room.
Feb 26, 2020, 02:26 PM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie

Nose-Dive near Mark


Wind top end of No 1 rig. Blue and Yellow on dead run. Yellow ahead by 10 boat lengths. Yellow enters zone then is overpowered, nose-dives, spins around a bit, then regains control and heads straight for the Mark. Meantime, Blue, also experiencing the gust, maintains control and heads for Mark. The next Mark is indicated so course is straight down on the drawing. There is collision close to the mark. This much is agreed. It is uncertain whether Yellow tacked or gybed between positions 9 and 10 (Yellow says gybe Blue says tack).

Blue claims Yellow exited the zone and therefore Blue had overlap and Mark Room. Yellow claims he did not exit the zone and therefore still had Mark Room when he regained control.

1. Who should be disqualified if Yellow exited the zone? (i.e. position 10 was outside the Zone)
2. Who should be disqualified if Yellow did not exit the zone? (i.e. position 10 was inside the Zone)
3. It was not obvious whether Yellow tacked or gybed when transom was aiming skywards. Would it make a difference if he was deemed to have tacked?
4. Could Rule 16 be cited on Blue's side?
5. Are there any Rules which cover situation where a boat is over-powered and out of control?

If you were Blue what would you do, seeing Yellow nose-diving and apparently out of control?

(it is difficult to show on the Boats drawing program the precise track taken by Yellow - but I'm sure you have experienced this yourselves)
Last edited by TheKaledonian; Feb 26, 2020 at 02:31 PM. Reason: More info
Feb 26, 2020, 02:57 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
Thread OP
Here are my thoughts - inserted between the questions.


1. Who should be disqualified if Yellow exited the zone? (i.e. position 10 was outside the Zone)

Yellow - as Blue would have mark room under R 18.2(b)

2. Who should be disqualified if Yellow did not exit the zone? (i.e. position 10 was inside the Zone)

If Yellow stayed in the zone and did not tack, then Blue would be at fault - R 18.2(b)

3. It was not obvious whether Yellow tacked or gybed when transom was aiming skywards. Would it make a difference if he was deemed to have tacked?

Yes - if Yellow passed HTW, or left the zone, then the original mark room would be cancelled R 18.2(d)

4. Could Rule 16 be cited on Blue's side? No change of course by Blue when ROW.

Don't see any application for R 16 here. And as ROW changed about P12 when the boats were far apart, no application of R 15 either,

5. Are there any Rules which cover situation where a boat is over-powered and out of control?

No - only if change of course or change of ROW or a hail of Out of Control as in Appendix E 2.3


6. If you were Blue what would you do, seeing Yellow nose-diving and apparently out of control?

I would probably go for the hole left by Yellow but recognise that I may be taking a risk.

John
Feb 26, 2020, 03:26 PM
Kaledonian Kiwi Aussie
Thank you for all that. You confirmed my own thoughts .Except that, the fact that Blue wouldn't know whether Yellow would continue away from the Mark, or, as she did, turn around and head back towards the Mark. If Blue headed to the right, he might collide with OOC Yellow, and whether going for correct side of Mark, or the wrong side, he might encounter Yellow OOC. Add, that Blue was using all concentration to avoid nose-diving himself! I wondered if there was anything in the rules about a boat temporarily out of control changing course erratically making it impossible for Keep Clear to avoid him - thereby infringing Rule 16. Definitely "no"? (When I say "out of control" I don't mean out of radio control - but simply taken over by the wind so out of control of the skipper)

Stewart
Last edited by TheKaledonian; Feb 26, 2020 at 03:29 PM. Reason: explanation
Feb 27, 2020, 10:50 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
1. Who should be disqualified if Yellow exited the zone? (i.e. position 10 was outside the Zone)

Yellow - as Blue would have mark room under R 18.2(b)John
Penalize both. Both boats break rule 14. Blue is exonerated for this, Yellow is not. Blue should have gybed between 14 and 15 to sail her proper course and avoid contact. Blue breaks rule 18.4.
Feb 27, 2020, 11:31 AM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray C
Penalize both. Both boats break rule 14. Blue is exonerated for this, Yellow is not. Blue should have gybed between 14 and 15 to sail her proper course and avoid contact. Blue breaks rule 18.4.
Penalising Blue at P15 under R 18.4 sounds harsh. She is alongside the mark and just far enough away that her boom is not hitting it - we don't know how far away from the control area to the mark, so depth perception issues are unknown.

If Blue sailed on straight for another boat length or two, then R 18.4 applies as this is not a gate.

John
Feb 27, 2020, 07:10 PM
Registered User
In the situation where yellow does not tack and does not leave the zone, this is a good scenario to ask:

Is there a time element in giving mark room?

The mark room in this situation is from clear ahead at the zone or 18.2(b). That mark room ceases under 18.2(d) "when the boat entitled to mark-room has been given that mark-room". Certainly mark room has been given when the boat has completed the mark room steps and has finished rounding the mark but what about the argument that this boat had plenty of time to complete the mark rounding and so had been given room and time to round the mark. I think it should no longer be allowed to claim mark room.

Is there any authority to support a position that time is irrelevant and the boat can hang around as long as it wants?

Bob


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Question about the Brushless 2226/2300 KV Easysky motor question (dolphin/cessna) twincobra Micro Ready-to-Fly 0 Feb 11, 2013 01:49 AM
Discussion AMA ALES Rules Question Roger Rocket Electric Competition Soaring-F5J/F5K/ALES/E-Soaring 7 Feb 01, 2013 05:33 PM
Discussion I know, I know stupid question about about World Tech Hercules Helo drtuvoc Coaxial Helicopters 1 Jan 26, 2013 09:40 PM
Discussion question about this sail plane munen123 Electric Sailplanes 8 Dec 29, 2006 05:52 AM