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Mar 13, 2018, 10:00 PM
Barry F - CAN 501
From the description of what happened there are some pretty obvious answers. B called for room, A said "No", B dipped behind A and went outside of A.

If B had even a sniff of room how, in the space involved in 4 boat lengths, did they manage to drop back enough to then go behind A and get alongside before getting to the mark. That is some pretty remarkable boat handling in only four boat lengths, presumably at speed.

My guess is that it was a nice bluff attempt by B and they simply got called on it and didn't like it.

My take on it is that it is a frivolous protest at best.

-Barry
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Mar 13, 2018, 11:23 PM
a.k.a. Bob Parks
All you need is a fraction of an inch of overlap. Seeing that fraction from shore may be hard to determine. So ducking behind was probably not that difficult, especially if there was some horizontal separation.

BP
Mar 14, 2018, 01:40 PM
Registered User
Just to clarify, RG65 class, 5 mph wind, A was approaching the mark at an angle, whereas B had sailed straight down the course. & the boats were about 2 meters apart. In the actual event A called no water & B ducked A's transom but didnt protest. B was a newish skipper & A was an experienced skipper. B say they didnt protest because they were not sure what would happen if it went to PC & they lost. So it looks as though the experienced skipper bluffed & got away with it. B should have protested as they had nothing to loose at the PC hearing, having not interfered with any other boat As an aside all the spectators & marshals felt B had an overlap so would have had their protest upheld but I wanted to check B could not get into trouble had they lost the hearing. Thank you for your replies.
Mar 15, 2018, 01:29 AM
Barry F - CAN 501
That's a clearer picture. Likely the bluff on the other foot from my previous reply. Not that it's right (because it is very against the Corinthian philosophy) but we have all seen the "experienced" sailor take this advantage and get away with it. Too many are afraid of the protest process when it is really a good educational opportunity, for everyone.

- Barry
Mar 19, 2018, 12:42 PM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Scenario:

2 boats: "W" and "L"

Start line incident: both boats attempting to hold station on the start line. Both moving *very* slowly, on starboard tack, parallel to the start line. Sails eased 90 degrees and flapping.

W is windward and ahead. L is leeward, and behind, going ever-so-slightly faster. With about 10 seconds to the start of the race, L establishes overlap with approximately 20 cm space between boats. Neither boats change course. Approx 9 seconds after overlap is established, the bow of L makes contact with the boom of W. This happens at about 1 second before the start.

The skipper of W immediately sheets in, causing his own boat to be pushed forward and L to be pushed backward.

The skipper of W claims contact, protests, and suggests that overtaking boat should keep clear.

The skipper of L protests, claims windward boat should keep clear.

In subsequent discussions, W agrees that overtaking boat was not appropriate rule for that situation, but claims that L did not give W sufficient room to keep clear.
Mar 19, 2018, 12:52 PM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
9 seconds from the time the overlap is established is ample time and opportunity for W to have taken action to keep clear. W should have taken immediate action as soon as the overlap was established. W's only defence would be if L altered course after the overlap was established. W breaks R11.
Mar 19, 2018, 12:56 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog
With about 10 seconds to the start of the race, L establishes overlap with approximately 20 cm space between boats. Neither boats change course. Approx 9 seconds after overlap is established, the bow of L makes contact with the boom of W. This happens at about 1 second before the start..
This is the key item in this incident.

Before the overlap, W was clear ahead and ROW under R 12. Once the overlap was established R 11 begins to apply, and L becomes ROW and W has to keep clear. Because of the change of ROW R 15 applies. From the description above, it sounds like L provided room and W could easily have kept clear but did nothing until the boom contact.

I think W is at fault for breaking R 11.

John
Mar 19, 2018, 02:25 PM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
Follow up question:

At a subsequent (hypothetical, because it didn't happen) protest hearing, W claims that L established overlap with only a few cm of space, not allowing for room to keep clear. L's claim is as written above. There are no witnesses.

What does a protest committee do when the stories are different and there's no secondary evidence?
Mar 19, 2018, 02:31 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
The PC tries to figure out what happened based on their experience.

What they would likely conclude based on the evidence is that an overlap started with the boats on approx parallel courses with some separation. The obligation for W to keep clear started as soon as the overlap was established. Then W did nothing for 9 seconds while L moved forward to the point that contact occurred between the boom of W and L.

It sounds like W had plenty of opportunity to stay clear.

John
Mar 19, 2018, 09:24 PM
Porky Pig Five, CAN 95
Does 22.3 come in to play at all?
I know the boats weren’t “backing a sail” but from the description it sounds like both boats are travelling sideways faster than they are forward.
It also sounds like W’s only option to keep clear would make them OCS. W pushed the limits of keeping clear to save from being over early, but in MHO Broke that rule several seconds before contact. Keeping clear does not mean no contact, if L had altered course to windward with 2 seconds to go there would have been immediate contact so W has already failed to keep clear.
Mar 19, 2018, 09:59 PM
John - In my private capacity
hiljoball's Avatar
It is hard to see how 22.3 would apply in RC sailing as 'backing' a sail requires the effort of a crew person pushing the boom against the wind. Letting a sail luff and have the boat moving backwards is not 'backing a sail'. Also in 22.3 moving sideways by backing has to be to windward - not drifting to leeward.

John
Mar 20, 2018, 12:53 AM
Registered User
Crunchy Frog's Avatar
In this case, the wind was quite light and not strong enough to push the boats sideways in any significant amount.

Here's another follow up question, although not so much a rules question. As you may have guessed, I was L in this scenario. I was told by both W and a 3rd party competitor that by putting my boat in that position I was being unsportsmanlike. What are your thoughts on that?
Mar 20, 2018, 01:19 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog
...What does a protest committee do when the stories are different and there's no secondary evidence?
The protest committee will ask questions of each party and allow each party to ask questions of the other. They will then determine the facts based on the responses to those questions. They will then apply the appropriate rules to the facts they have found and decide what rules, if any, have been broken. They will then present their decision to the parties.

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the protestor to prove their case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog
...The skipper of W claims contact, protests, and suggests that overtaking boat should keep clear.
I don't know of any rule that states an overtaking boat shall keep clear.
Mar 20, 2018, 01:22 AM
Registered User
Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy frog
in this case, the wind was quite light and not strong enough to push the boats sideways in any significant amount.

Here's another follow up question, although not so much a rules question. As you may have guessed, i was l in this scenario. I was told by both w and a 3rd party competitor that by putting my boat in that position i was being unsportsmanlike. What are your thoughts on that?
roflmfho!
W takes no action to avoid L once overlap is established when W is required to do so by the rules because, if W did, W would most likely be OCS. That is more likely to be "unsportsmanlike". There is nothing more sportsmanlike than using the rules to control your opposition to your advantage.
Last edited by Murray C; Mar 20, 2018 at 01:32 AM.
Mar 20, 2018, 08:14 AM
Registered User
A.B.'s Avatar
Only unsportspersonlike conduct if you told W and the 3rd party to go *@#+ themselves for suggesting that using the rules was unsportspersonlike .


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