|
||
|
Quote:
Good thread. No such thing as a dumb question. Love the video quizzes link posted earlier. The high level debate about the RRS and its wording vs intent belongs in a working group, not here. It's a pretty intimidating sporthobby for most people. Two dozen variables on the boat, infinite combinations of wind/sea state, venues where you can lose sight of your leading boat for minutes behind others trailing you ...not to mention design/build choices. I have to chuckle at times how long it takes to do post mortems on video of situations that often take mere seconds and reflex begins to dominate. I hope this rules discussion stays simple and accessible to the intermediate and beginners among us! Thanks, John, for starting this going. |
|
|
||
|
|
|
|
Since no one on this thread is a certified judge or umpire or ISAF official, EVERYTHING here is just a matter of personal opinion. However, I can say that the position taken by Waboats--that "dip starts" must be specifically allowed in the sailing instructions or otherwise are prohibited--is one that I have never heard or seen before in over twenty-five years of sailing both large and small boats. I think Ted Flack has it right....just my opinion (lol)
|
|
|
|
||
|
Quote:
I was a certified Judge/Senior Judge in Canada for over 20 years (but no longer active since I retired and sold my big boat). I have also been an on-the-water Umpire at a Can/AM match race event and Chief Judge at a Canadian J24 Championship. But now I am just a private citizen just like everyone else and my views and opinions have no official standing. John John |
|
|
||
|
|
|
Some but Not All..
APPENDIX J NOTICE OF RACE AND SAILING INSTRUCTIONS J2 SAILING INSTRUCTION CONTENTS J2.2 The sailing instructions shall include those of the following that will apply: (3) changes to the racing rules permitted by rule 86, referring specifically to each rule and stating the change (also, if rule 86.2 applies, include the statement from ISAF authorizing the change); (22) any special procedures or signals for individual or general recall; (40) other commitments of the race committee and obligations of boats. |
|
|
|
|
|
Waboats, I’ll give it one more try.
This is an extract from the SI used in Australia for the 2013 Nationals. It complies with your quoted extract. From the AUS 2013 Nats SI. 8.2 Following one general recall, RRS 30.1 shall apply to the restart. This changes E3.6. So I ask the question “Is R 30.1 in effect for the initial attempt to start that heat”? If R 30.1 is always in effect as you seem to be arguing – then why include this item (8.2) in the SI – it would be redundant. If R 30.1 is not in effect for the initial start, then what rule is preventing a recalled boat to dip the line to restart correctly. John |
|
|
|
|||
|
Quote:
You seem to be dancing around.. We are dealing with an Individual Recall.. Not sure what a General Recall 29.2 (E3.6) has to do with it.. All boats return & we start over... Please Quote the Rule.. E3.5 which SUBSTITUES 29.1... Then Explain Yourself around the words that are left in E3.5.. Once Substituted you cannot then go back to 29.1 simply to Fill in the Gaps left by E3.5 change.. It's changed so things need to be done to overcome its' failing (ie E3.5 is weak IMHO).. Quote:
If E3.5 takes away Rule 30 then we must sek a solution in the SI's, not assume that anything is possible. We must look to Appendix J for diection. Pretty simple if you ask me.. |
||
|
Last edited by waboats; Mar 13, 2013 at 06:17 PM.
|
||
|
|
|
Sorry Waboats, but you are still not seeing it.
R 30 is always available but only applies if invoked - either by the sailing instructions, or by the action of the race committee. R 30 is the only place where it says go around the end. So if R 30 is not invoked, then there is nowhere that requires a boat to go around the end. The AUS SI is an example where for a normal start, there is no invocation of R 30, so there is no need for a recalled boat to go around the end. - but the game changes if there is a general recall. The SI then activates R30.1 so an individual recall in the restarted heat does require a boat to go around the end. As I said in an earlier reply, E 3.5 is about the hail, not about the path to be sailed. It still says 'or if a boat must comply with 30.1' - which requires that 30.1 has been invoked) What E3.5 is doing is replacing the recall flag used in big boats with a hail for RC. E3.5 Individual Recall Rule 29.1 is changed to: When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course side of the starting line, or when she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly hail ‘Recall (sail numbers)’ and repeat the hail as appropriate. John |
|
|
|
||
|
Quote:
John I think you are missing my point.. I do not disagree with what you are saying.. Especially about R30 & its' need to be Invoked.. E3.5 Does NOT INVOKE R30.. Without R30 or an SI's instruction (or perhaps a Committee advice at Briefing) then there is Nothing in E3.5 to Invoke any Return (via ends or dipstart) nor a Penalty.. That is the Connundrum of a Changed/Substitute Rule that fails to address completely the Intentions of the original Rule (eg 29.1), especially without a preamble to the rule as explanation & reasoning for change... I agree the only way to overcome the shortcomings of E3.5 is to return to 29.1 & invoke the penalty alternatives.. Is this Legal or Appropriate given teh change & words used? Only Option but strictly not correct.. The Rule Change should be robust enough so as to Stand Alone , especially when it seeks to substitute that which went before.. E3.8(b) deals with the Hail vs Flag so it is redundant if it has already occurred @ E3.5.. E3.8 Other Changes to the Rules of Part 3 (a) Rules 30.2 and 33 are deleted. (b) All race committee signals shall be made orally or by other sounds. No visual signals are required unless specified in the sailing instructions. (c) Courses shall not be shortened. (d) Rule 32.1(b) is changed to: ‘because of foul weather or thunderstorms,’. There is Far TOO MUCH faffing about with Appendix E.. and all that should be required are Definition Changes & deal with the difference between Racing Big vs Small Boats.. Complete Changes such as 29.1 are unnecessary & unhelpful. |
|
|
||
|
|||
|
Back to the reason for the Topic.
This is on Facebook but I thought I would put it here with the same question. Did number 10 do his turn properly?
|
||
|
|||
|
|
|
Good one Ted.
What foul did 10 commit? What I saw was 10 on Port sailing close hauled below the lay line of the weather mark to be rounded to stbd. The wind was strong and there were large waves. As 10 on port crossed ahead of 61 on stbd, 61 luffed up suddenly. 61 did not give room for 10 to keep clear. I cannot see if there was any contact between the boats, but if there was I would penalise 61 under R16.1. If no contact, then no foul by either boat. John |
|
|
|
|
|
On a separate discussion and assuming that 10 did commit a foul- did the gybe and tack by 10 meet the requirement of R 44.2?
Please read the attached pdf. The penalty turn issue is similar although the facts of the incident are different. In the video, 10 makes her gybe to stbd and then sails at least four boat lenghts to get above the port lay line before making her tack to port. That delay would fail the test of 'prompt' in R44.2 and as supported by the following official finding by the Sail Canada Appeals board. John |
|
|
Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads | |||||
Category | Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Discussion | Question about the Brushless 2226/2300 KV Easysky motor question (dolphin/cessna) | twincobra | Micro Ready-to-Fly | 0 | Feb 11, 2013 01:49 AM |
Discussion | AMA ALES Rules Question | Roger Rocket | Electric Competition Soaring-F5J, eF3K, F5K, ALES | 7 | Feb 01, 2013 05:33 PM |
Discussion | I know, I know stupid question about about World Tech Hercules Helo | drtuvoc | Coaxial Helicopters | 1 | Jan 26, 2013 09:40 PM |
Discussion | question about this sail plane | munen123 | Electric Sailplanes | 8 | Dec 29, 2006 05:52 AM |