Originally Posted by madsci_guy

Obviously the writer never studied market forces in Economics.

What is "fair", is when a buyer and seller agree on a price and the product is sold.

What's fair about taking advantage of a desperate person in a bad situation? Maybe doctors should do the same thing... Your bleeding could cost you your life so how much are you willing to pay me to stitch it up? Sorry, the next guy has more money than you and he's willing to pay more so I'm moving on down the line.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

What's fair about taking advantage of a desperate person in a bad situation? Maybe doctors should do the same thing... Your bleeding could cost you your life so how much are you willing to pay me to stitch it up? Sorry, the next guy has more money than you and he's willing to pay more so I'm moving on down the line.

Money is a placeholder of not only the cost of providing something, but the value it represents. The time a doctor has isn't infinite neither is our supply of doctors. Make trips to the doctor free and suddenly a great many people are there simply because they have the sniffles. Price provides guidance to both those providing a good or service and to those using it. If a shortage of ice after a hurricane makes ice $20 a bag then people probably aren't going to be using it to cool their drinks. Which is a good thing because the supply is limited. That means more ice gets saved and can be used to keep medicine from going bad, from keeping food from spoiling, etc... .

This isn't to say that someone couldn't be trying to take advantage of somebody else, but too often times there is a rush to judgement on that.

Who said anything about free? Do you think doctors showing up to disaster situation should haggle with the victims about price or charge outrageous prices for stitches just because the victims are desperate for their care under some extreme circumstances? I'll bet you don't and that was the point I was trying to make. Otherwise what might happen in a disaster situation is that only the rich get saved.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

What's fair about taking advantage of a desperate person in a bad situation? Maybe doctors should do the same thing... Your bleeding could cost you your life so how much are you willing to pay me to stitch it up? Sorry, the next guy has more money than you and he's willing to pay more so I'm moving on down the line.

What you are now talking about is someone out of the goodness of their heart, ignoring what the market would establish as the fair price. It's not fair, it's now charity, something that doesn't take fairness into account.

After all, it's not fair to the doctor that he donate or undercharge his time just because some people were too stubborn to evacuate from a hurricane before it happened, or were unlucky enough to be caught unaware of impending disaster.

I see so, then you would be OK with only the rich getting supplies and being treated during disaster situations. Interesting....

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

I see so, then you would be OK with only the rich getting supplies and being treated during disaster situations. Interesting....

That's funny but not true. Please read what I post, not what you'd like me to post so that you can erect a strawman.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

I see so, then you would be OK with only the rich getting supplies and being treated during disaster situations. Interesting....

I see, so you'd be happy with having all doctors under the Soviet system where they got paid almost nothing for their hard work and skill.

See? I can do it too

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

What you are now talking about is someone out of the goodness of their heart, ignoring what the market would establish as the fair price. It's not fair, it's now charity, something that doesn't take fairness into account.

After all, it's not fair to the doctor that he donate or undercharge his time just because some people were too stubborn to evacuate from a hurricane before it happened, or were unlucky enough to be caught unaware of impending disaster.

So he should charge as much as he can possibly get and again, only the rich get to be saved from their stupidity and/or unawareness. Tell me who is it that supposedly never lets a good disaster go to waste?

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

I see, so you'd be happy with having all doctors under the Soviet system where they got paid almost nothing for their hard work and skill.

See? I can do it too

Soviets? Who said anything about the Soviets? We are talking about people gouging victims of disasters. You apparently think that's OK because that represents a free market. I think that's wrong.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

So he should charge as much as he can possibly get and again, only the rich get to be saved from their stupidity and/or unawareness. Tell me who is it that supposedly never lets a good disaster go to waste?

Please read carefully.

In a disaster, fairness rarely applies. The doctor and disaster response teams simply don't think of fairness.

So, any "fairness" argument simply doesn't apply.

It's like triage in an ER during a disaster. Fairness is not the criteria. Fairness would demand that everyone get saved, and that never happens in a really big disaster.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

Soviets? Who said anything about the Soviets?

You made me say something that I never said. And I showed you what it was like, by doing exactly what you did..

It's called a strawman. The strawman is bolded below.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

I see so, then you would be OK with only the rich getting supplies and being treated during disaster situations. Interesting....

I suggest that you not try to make me say something that I've not said, if you find the experience as wrong as I do..

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

Please read carefully.

In a disaster, fairness rarely applies. The doctor and disaster response teams simply don't think of fairness.

So, any "fairness" argument simply doesn't apply.

It's like triage in an ER during a disaster. Fairness is not the criteria. Fairness would demand that everyone get saved, and that never happens in a really big disaster.

Fairness doesn't make demands. People do. Fairness is just an even application of the criteria one uses in the judgement of others. If a Doctor generally charges $x for a service then he ought to be charging $x during the disaster. If he's out there in the field and helping and he generally doesn't go out there and do that, then that is the charity part. If he gives away his services that is also a charity that he choose to do on his own. There is no reason he couldn't charge his regular rate plus any additional costs he may have incurred. That's fair. Gouging for services or supplies just because people are desperate isn't fair, IMHO. It's profiteering.

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

You made me say something that I never said. And I showed you what it was like, by doing exactly what you did..

It's called a strawman. The strawman is bolded below.



I suggest that you not try to make me say something that I've not said, if you find the experience as wrong as I do..

Fair enough. You didn't say those words but your argument suggests that you would agree with my statement.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

Fair enough. You didn't say those words but your argument suggests that you would agree with my statement.

Why?

I merely said that fairness does not apply. The doctor or shopkeeper are perfectly permitted to give charity to people. Just don't call it fairness if they do more because it is an emergency. It wasn't fair to the doctor or shopkeeper to demand that things remain the same when they obviously aren't.

That's why we are grateful to them, you know, We know, deep down, that it's not fair to them.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz

Fairness doesn't make demands. People do.

I think you just proved my point.

Fairness is just an even application of the criteria one uses in the judgement of others. If a Doctor generally charges $x for a service then he ought to be charging $x during the disaster. If he's out there in the field and helping and he generally doesn't go out there and do that, then that is the charity part. If he gives away his services that is also a charity that he choose to do on his own. There is no reason he couldn't charge his regular rate plus any additional costs he may have incurred. That's fair. Gouging for services or supplies just because people are desperate isn't fair, IMHO. It's profiteering.

Yes, profit is part of the American way.

But if I as a shopkeeper, maintain enough supplies for an emergency, what is wrong in being recompensed for my foresight?

Remember the fable of the ant and grasshopper? You've heard the Liberal version, right? It's "fairness" in action

http://quodlibetalblog.wordpress.com...liberal-style/

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends eating the last bits of the ant’s food. Meanwhile, the government house he is in, which was always so well-maintained by the ant, crumbles because the grasshopper takes it for granted and has trashed it. The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related incident. The house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the now-ramshackle neighborhood, which was once so prosperous and peaceful, The entire Nation collapses, dragging the rest of the free world with it.