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Nov 28, 2012, 10:32 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
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Discussion

New RG-65


A new RG-65 available soon from JoysWay.
Dragon Force RG65 Yacht Prototype.mov (4 min 41 sec)
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Nov 29, 2012, 01:13 AM
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A Littlke more Info...

http://www.rcyachts.org.uk/epages/St...ragon_Force_65

Looks pretty good...
Nov 29, 2012, 03:29 AM
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ToniGe23's Avatar
I saw this at the MYA AGM trade show it's been developed by two British guys who are very experienced in the model sailing scene and Ripmax UK.
It should sell by the bucket load and get the RG65 pushed forward onto the lakes.
Nov 29, 2012, 05:09 AM
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al harrington's Avatar
Lets hope before they sell by the bucketload that a tight set of class rules (within a class) are offered. Otherwise we will see the same as what happened with the Micro Magic where the newcomer is led to believe his equipment is good enough to compete at all levels of competition, only to find he needs x amount of lower rigs, stiffer spars, ball raced parts and new sails.
Having a plastic hull with a metal fin, one rig with single panel nylon sails and what looks an oversized bulb, will this boat honestly compete with the carbon versions in this class? If the answer is no then this needs to be made clear to the newcomer.

All this said, as a one design at the price offered it will take off so long as tight rules are in place.
Nov 29, 2012, 05:46 AM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by al harrington
Lets hope before they sell by the bucketload that a tight set of class rules (within a class) are offered. Otherwise we will see the same as what happened with the Micro Magic where the newcomer is led to believe his equipment is good enough to compete at all levels of competition, only to find he needs x amount of lower rigs, stiffer spars, ball raced parts and new sails.
Having a plastic hull with a metal fin, one rig with single panel nylon sails and what looks an oversized bulb, will this boat honestly compete with the carbon versions in this class? If the answer is no then this needs to be made clear to the newcomer.

All this said, as a one design at the price offered it will take off so long as tight rules are in place.
Rules for the RG-65 class in the U.S. are here.

http://theamya.org/boats/rg65/


The RG-65 is an International development class with a 30 year history. The class rules limit only the length of the hull (65 cm), the height of the rig (110 cm) and the sail area (2250 square centimeters). The class originated in Argentina and is popular in South America and Europe.

Boats are light, quick, and responsive. A typical boat weighs 1 kilogram with a l lb or 500 gram trolling sinker for a bulb. Many designs can be found on the Internet and some kits are on the market and under development. A competitive balsa-hulled boat can be built for well under $200, radio included, and easily transported in even the smallest of cars.

The Class is managed in the U.S. by a Class Owners Association which is accredited as the National Class Authority by the RG-65 International Class Authority.
Nov 29, 2012, 06:27 AM
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al harrington's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
Rules for the RG-65 class in the U.S. are here.

http://theamya.org/boats/rg65/


The RG-65 is an International development class with a 30 year history. The class rules limit only the length of the hull (65 cm), the height of the rig (110 cm) and the sail area (2250 square centimeters). The class originated in Argentina and is popular in South America and Europe.

Boats are light, quick, and responsive. A typical boat weighs 1 kilogram with a l lb or 500 gram trolling sinker for a bulb. Many designs can be found on the Internet and some kits are on the market and under development. A competitive balsa-hulled boat can be built for well under $200, radio included, and easily transported in even the smallest of cars.

The Class is managed in the U.S. by a Class Owners Association which is accredited as the National Class Authority by the RG-65 International Class Authority.
Thanks for that. I am aware of the class rules.
It may be true that a balsa boat can be on the water for under $200 in the US but as with the Marblehead class, that bubble will burst the minute someone desperate to win turns up with a high spec boat from Bantock, Brazil or similar.
If this boat was made as a one deign class of its own, then I see no reason for it not to be a success. Boats can also still race within open RG65 competition. A class within a class as I tried to say. Win win.
As a stand alone boat it will struggle to measure up against the top boats without modification, much in the same way the of Windstar IOM.
Nov 29, 2012, 06:43 AM
Useful Idiot
We see quite a lot of prototypes and cottage industry kits, but with a big name distributor behind them, rather less. If pricing is as keen as indicated (less than the MicroMagic) and with a 2.4 GHz radio, it should give the class a boost.
Nov 29, 2012, 06:53 AM
Useful Idiot
Quote:
Originally Posted by al harrington
Thanks for that. I am aware of the class rules.
It may be true that a balsa boat can be on the water for under $200 in the US but as with the Marblehead class, that bubble will burst the minute someone desperate to win turns up with a high spec boat from Bantock, Brazil or similar.
If this boat was made as a one deign class of its own, then I see no reason for it not to be a success. Boats can also still race within open RG65 competition. A class within a class as I tried to say. Win win.
As a stand alone boat it will struggle to measure up against the top boats without modification, much in the same way the of Windstar IOM.
It is quite possible to build a seaworthy all balsa hull that will weigh no more than the latest hi tech carbon fibre/kevlar hulls. I think your criticisms are overly pessimistic.
Nov 29, 2012, 08:04 AM
Suspended Account
My understanding is this is a Prototype at the moment & some additional developments may be undertaken prior to final product.
from an initial contact between Mike (RC Yachts) and Ripmax to develope a radio controlled racing yacht that is ready available at an affordable price. Working with Joysway and also bringing onboard Mark Dicks as designer and John Tushingham (Graphite) with his technical expertise we decided to base the new yacht on the RG65 class
Looking who is involved with the project I am confident the final result will be a good all round product.

Yes Upgrade in Rigs etc may be available & quite possibly desirable for some..

The standard rMM meets most peoples needs. I do quite well with my Out of the Box Kit Built MM..

Time on the water is the most important thing. You can't buy experience.

To keep a product affordable & appealing to the New Skipper then a Basic Usable Product is all that is needed.. If you want to play & win at the top end then you expect to put a little time & effort into sailing practice & working out what rig setups work for different conditions.

If that means a few choices in Bulbs, Rigs etc then that is what you expect at the top end of competition. This looks to be marketed as a good entry level & affordable RG65

What I would like to see are some additional video alongside other RG65 boats, not necessarily the same design..

Just for comparison...
Nov 29, 2012, 08:42 AM
Registered User
al harrington's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin richards
It is quite possible to build a seaworthy all balsa hull that will weigh no more than the latest hi tech carbon fibre/kevlar hulls. I think your criticisms are overly pessimistic.
This may well be the case Martin but how often do we see this at the front end in competition? How many balsa low cost Marblehead's do we see now? The perception is that unless you have a skapel then don't bother showing. The RG is going the same way looking at some of the costs of boats that placed at the last major events.
Just saying people should be aware that a lower spec mass produced boat may not be as competitive in class racing, in the same way that that a single rig rtr Micro is not without extra rigs and new sails.
I hope it does well and yes we need inexpensive well sorted start up boats. Include some one design rules as the Micro should have done and learn from their mistakes. Then it may be huge.
Last edited by al harrington; Nov 29, 2012 at 08:44 AM. Reason: alteration
Nov 29, 2012, 08:48 AM
Useful Idiot
The video showed at least that it didn't nose dive too much on downwind in a reasonably fresh breeze in what might be close to the upper limit of A rig conditions.
Nov 29, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Al - only a supposition ----- that perhaps balsa Marbleheads "would" be at the upper end of performance "IF" an owner were willing to carefully build one. During the development of the RG65 Class here in the US, I found that like many other classes, the next new thing was being dominant - until a well and carefully built balsa boat appeared.

Let's face the additional fact that no (commercial) builder is going to spend time building a balsa "strip" boat when they can do a mold and pump out polyester, epoxy, carbon, Kevlar hulls with higher material cost, but much less time. If someone were to develop a method for building a balsa hull in a mold there might be more "wood on the water" than one would think. I am still working on my "Woodie" - it being a balsa stick frame with 1/20 thick wood veneer. Of course, this build of mine was directed toward a "pretty" boat - and if it happens to be lightweight fast, so much the better.

I agree that if the company can come in with the pricing noted, it probably will sell well, and like most other inexpensive boats, will find a bigger percentage of "pond sailing buyers" compared to hard core racing ones.

Unfortunately, the lack of dedicated builders of wooden boats of most all classes just leads to the reduced number of wood boats sailing - in my opinion.

Cheers, Dick
Nov 29, 2012, 02:56 PM
Registered User
Always good to see a major manufacturer put money into a mass production model sailboat from an established designer. But has been pointed out in this thread, claiming that the under 200 pound kit boat can do well in an open class like the RG65 is just plain misleading. Anyone who buys the kit to race as an RG65 will be very, very disappointed. Facts are facts. Carbon fiber fin beats out steel, wood or aluminum. Sailmaker built multi-panel sails beat out a single piece of mylar. Carbon fiber or kevlar hulls are lighter and stiffer than blow mold or vacuform. Purpose build carbon fiber masts are way better than aluminum, wood or even off the shelf carbon fiber tubes. Better to be clear from the outset that this is a well sailing kit and a competitive one design for club racing that also happens to fit under the RG65 rules.
Nov 29, 2012, 04:11 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
Thread OP
Who said anything about this being a race boat ? And at how many local ponds will you find an over priced rg65 ? The same designers that build over priced ioms are jumping on to the rg bandwagon .
Nov 29, 2012, 04:49 PM
Rusty
Rusty Nail's Avatar
It has to be better than their Footy which is only 10 inches long when it could have been over 14!
Nov 29, 2012, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al harrington
This may well be the case Martin but how often do we see this at the front end in competition? ......Just saying people should be aware that a lower spec mass produced boat may not be as competitive in class racing,...
Why it is always that when a Boat comes on the market that it is immediately set upon & Must Become a front end competition boat?

Mass Produced by it's very nature would suggest it should not be compared with purpose built craft.

This is the same in any R/C Hobby where competition is involved.. Just need to look at R/C Cars for that..

I find references to the MM a little naive when considering RTR usually refers to Ready to Run.

Yes you can race a boat if you so choose but the Majority of Skippers do not..

The MM is a Classic Example of this.. How many Kits Sold vs How many Racing..


When it comes to a Mass Production then a Product is Focussed on a Target Market..

There simply aren't enough R/C Yacht Racers out there to have a product geared directly towards them. That is why there are so many small Cottage Industries supplying the necessary bits & pieces & filling the void.

Competition always comes down to the RULE MAKERS not the manufacturer..



Last edited by waboats; Nov 29, 2012 at 09:22 PM.
Nov 30, 2012, 06:24 AM
Registered User
al harrington's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats
Why it is always that when a Boat comes on the market that it is immediately set upon & Must Become a front end competition boat?

Mass Produced by it's very nature would suggest it should not be compared with purpose built craft.
As mentioned in an earlier post

from an initial contact between Mike (RC Yachts) and Ripmax to develope a radio controlled racing yacht that is ready available at an affordable price. Working with Joysway and also bringing onboard Mark Dicks as designer and John Tushingham (Graphite) with his technical expertise we decided to base the new yacht on the RG65 class

As 2 of these were/are commercially involved with the MM class and its blow out from a simple cost entry level boat to a multi rigged over priced version, a set of one design rules by them would be a way of showing their intentions for this boat to avoid a similar problem. It will be pushed as an entry level boat suitable for racing and newcomers looking to race for the first time should be aware that as an outright RG65 they may not be as competitive as hoped without modification.
Nov 30, 2012, 06:36 AM
Registered User
Hi Guys
I have read your comments with great interest and thank you for your input.
This has been an on-going project with Ripmax and Joysway for over a year as we saw the need for an available and affordable radio yacht that performs to a high standard for the racing skipper. For this reason I brought on board Mark Dicks for the design and John Tushingham for his technical expertise.
After communicating with Joysway and specifying the technical requirements of the yacht we were pleasantly surprised as to the quality of the prototypes that we are now testing. The first two were slightly heavy but the third one is now 100grams lighter - the latest (the one in Johns video) is now just over 1.2 kg very close to the design weight.
Although we have high expectations to its performance, the yacht will be at least a 100g heavier that the normal competitive RG65 as of a similar design.
We are in the process of drawing up a set of rules for the Dragon Force so it can be used as a one design within the RG65 parameters.
We are working on some technical issues with Joysway at present and are hopeful the yacht will be available early in the New Year. The ballast is an alloy rather than lead as this will be available through commercial outlets - hence its size
Any of your comments will be appreciated.
For all the latest information on the Dragon Force please visit our website www.rcyachts.org.uk
Nov 30, 2012, 06:50 AM
Registered User
Good points made by everybody, so let me try and give you some answers.

We were invited by Ripmax UK to develop a new racing sailboat to built in China by Joysway. We only had a short time to provide them with the finished design and sample boat, so we opted to base the boat on Mark Dick's current RG65 design ICE. We have kept the boat within the RG65 class rules to help establish the class in emerging countries where there is little or no supply of locally built boats.
Weight was always going to be an issue when comparing a plastic hulled boat to a custom built Carbon version, but working closely with Joysway the finished boat is a reasonable 1230g (approx). This is around 200g more than the full carbon version, but on the water the difference in speed is closer than you might expect.
When we know the exact final spec of the production boat we will be in a position to draft a set of rules for the Dragon Force to act as a Restricted Class, but still able to sail in the Open RG65 races. The only allowable changes to the standard boat will be such things as replacing standard string with better quality item such as Dyneema. These changes are only to improve the durability and reliability of the boat for a better ownership experience.
The standard rig is a full sized, low aspect, RG65 rig with carbon spars and a ball-raced gooseneck. Obviously, to race effectively in all conditions smaller riga are needed. We will draft an outline shape for two smaller rigs. Spars and rig fittings will be restricted to standard Joysway components (all of which work perfectly well), whilst sail manufacture will be open to anyone, professional or amateur, provided they are within the sail dimensions laid out in the Dragon Force rules. We hope that other countries will adopt these rules.
It never looks windy in a video, but the day we shot that YouTube video it was very much top end conditions for the standard, full sized rig. As you can see, the boat sails very well, perfectly balanced. We did sail it against the carbon ICE sistership and in those conditions there was almost nothing in it between them - very encouraging! There will be a slight performance disadvantage in lighter winds, but I think you'll be impressed with it's overall performance.
So it should form the basis of a good entry level class and club racer when raced as a Restricted Class, whilst also not being totally outdone in an Open Class RG65 fleet.
But the best bit is the price! In the UK we are looking at a rrp of 165GBP, but an expected street price of around 150GBP!

John Tushingham
UK
Nov 30, 2012, 11:09 AM
Useful Idiot
Welcome Mike and John. Thanks for your comments and thanks for your efforts to bring a boat to the masses. Could we have just a few more details, re weight, ballast fin length etc:


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