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May 23, 2019, 07:24 PM
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Hobby Star batteries from rcjuice. Would love to see the 60c 3500mAh tested against 70c 3300mah from dinogy. Dinogy was out of what I needed and almost pulled trigger on these hobby star but they weigh a lot less than dinogy 3300 and have more capacity. Didn’t add up so I went with Roaring Top
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May 23, 2019, 09:03 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP
My systems calibrated around the ~5000/6S range. Plus that's primarily what I use in my EDF's. Also my thinking has always been there's quite a few others who could load test smaller packs so I focus on the larger ones.

Joe
May 23, 2019, 09:59 PM
big ignore list/drama is dumb
brushless55's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSGUY
I think itís spot on for determining safe max C values on the ground. Also for tracking pack health on a continuing basis. I also believe high stress monitored full discharge cycles help provide the rest of the picture on how pack chemistry (and power delivery infrastructure) may hold up and perform in the air under conditions approaching itís maximum temperature levels.

I keep one next to my load test rig. With a few exceptions you canít go wrong just going by the information it provides.

Joe
Thank you I appreciate it Joe.
May 23, 2019, 10:15 PM
big ignore list/drama is dumb
brushless55's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSGUY
And because of your kind support I just ordered one of the new 45C Scorpions for testing

I picked the 45C over the 70C to maintain the present focus on lining up stats on some lighter options, ~750g in this case.

Thanks Jack!

Joe

PS. Gryph made up the remainder
Looking forward to how those Scorpions do.
What mAh size and cell count are you buying this go around?
May 23, 2019, 10:57 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by brushless55
Looking forward to how those Scorpions do.
What mAh size and cell count are you buying this go around?
5000/6S/"45C" weighing ~750g

Joe
May 24, 2019, 04:08 AM
Registered User

CNHL Black series and Graphenes aging test.


I've tested the latest CNHL Black series vs. CNHL G++ 55C and 70C (which are the same as HK Graphene) and Turnigy Heavy Duty. All are around 850g.
All lipo except Black and "CNHL 55 new" were 1-2 years old and had 10-20 flights on them. For the rest of the year stored at 12 Centigrade in the basement at 3.8V.
Starting temperature was +20C. Ending (1 min after stop): THD-63C, Black-60C, CNHL 56C.
Discharged done in FW F-22 with Frsky FAS-150 sensor.

Conclusions:
As you can see lipo are like food - a fresh one is always better than a more expensive old one.
Also Turnigy HD shows it's nature: when new it was on par with Graphenes while next year needs a thermal boost to get close. Perhaps it uses that "cheap manganese lithium" Joe mentions (although I couldn't find any simple references to it: seems the reality is much more complex)
CNHL after 1-2 seasons lost ~100-150mAh capacity while THD is still 5050mAh (from 4.2 to 3.3V @0.5C)

As for CNHL Black - seems it's close to 55C G++: heats up slightly more but has a true capacity of 5Ah while G++ and Graphenes usually come at 4850-4900mAh. Good part - I paid only 57$ shipped.
May 24, 2019, 05:55 AM
Registered User
atreis's Avatar
This old vs. new test is interesting, and pretty much inline with my (non-scientific) experience, although 10-20 cycles isn't a lot of cycles. (On individual packs, I'll put more like 30-40 in a season.) I wonder how much is from age and how much from cycles.

The Hyperion testing is also interesting. It looks like there are starting to be some good lighter weight options.
May 24, 2019, 06:15 AM
Registered User
GryphonRCU's Avatar
CNHL,

It seems their newer packs are getting smaller and lighter.

All 4S-1500
I assume, Black 100C is newest, 70C the oldest.

Black 100C
https://chinahobbyline.com/index.php...product_id=278

100C G+Plus
https://chinahobbyline.com/index.php...t&product_id=7

70C G+Plus
https://chinahobbyline.com/index.php...&product_id=23


Do any of you experts test those sizes?
I think Joe mentioned 2-3 names many months ago.
What type of improvements have you seen?
Any draw backs on newer packs?


Continuously getting smaller and lighter and more powerful too?

Eventually the new improvements should benefit the large packs.


Thanks,
G.
May 24, 2019, 06:31 AM
Registered User
Ryguy's Avatar
One thing I’ve noticed about Turnigy HDs is that at some point they changed cells but kept the same label. I had an older battery I got at a local auction, was impressed by it, and have since ordered 5 more new. The newer ones have all been noticeably smaller and weigh 50 grams less than that first pack.

Under a 115 amp load they still hold voltage fantastically, so for my purpose the newer cells do great.
May 24, 2019, 07:13 AM
HAL... Open the damn doors!
jfetter's Avatar
Joe,

This is what I would be interested in you summarizing after all your time spent. I'm sure this data is in here mixed around but just a simple, summarized, single post (one or multiple brands if they qualify) of the following:

1. General best-of-breed LiPo brand: It doesn't have to win every test or be the lightest but can I trust purchasing this brand and getting a quality, competitive pack 95% of time?

2. Optimum storage conditions: How do I ensure long life when not in-use, what storage temp & voltage and how long before "checking" on them is recommended?

3. General cycles I can expect when used within spec and stored per conditions above?

4. General lifespan if stored per conditions above and used less than the expected cycle limit?

It may sound overly simple but I have a good amount of packs to replace in the next year+, can these core requirements be confidently summarized?

Jack
May 24, 2019, 07:23 AM
Landing is not optional
JamesonC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSGUY
My paypal is [email protected]
You guys fund 'em and I'll bring the ropes and hammer

My only concern about Hobbystar is they offer an 8000mah 100C pack. Really?! 800 amps? Even 50% is 400 amps so I'm just a little skeptical about how the company may be willing to go to market. If they release a "True 120C" label I'm pulling out my Honesty Meter

Joe
Yeah, I am not saying they label honestly, maybe I worded that wrong. They seem very small and light for their rated capacity, yet quite a few EDF fliers rave about them and swear by them.

Unfortunately, I can't fund the whole thing but I am very happy to contribute towards Hobbystar testing for sure!
May 24, 2019, 11:15 AM
Frankenstein recycled packs
rampman's Avatar
Joe, you asked how accurate the capacity is on the Rhino 5000 packs a while back. I finally got around to seeing my numbers and they are:
4915 out
5079 in

As with any capacity test, you have to use some common sense. Usually when I get numbers this far out I re-do the test but draining a 5000 size pack from 4.2/cell to 3.0 at 1.0 amp takes more time than I want to spend and I do not know how many deep discharges one can take before permanent damage occurs...but law of averages says it is safe to say these are using true 5000 mah cells.

Rick
May 24, 2019, 03:18 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockrat
I've tested the latest CNHL Black series vs. CNHL G++ 55C and 70C (which are the same as HK Graphene) and Turnigy Heavy Duty. All are around 850g.
All lipo except Black and "CNHL 55 new" were 1-2 years old and had 10-20 flights on them. For the rest of the year stored at 12 Centigrade in the basement at 3.8V.
Starting temperature was +20C. Ending (1 min after stop): THD-63C, Black-60C, CNHL 56C.
Discharged done in FW F-22 with Frsky FAS-150 sensor.

Conclusions:
As you can see lipo are like food - a fresh one is always better than a more expensive old one.
Also Turnigy HD shows it's nature: when new it was on par with Graphenes while next year needs a thermal boost to get close. Perhaps it uses that "cheap manganese lithium" Joe mentions (although I couldn't find any simple references to it: seems the reality is much more complex)
CNHL after 1-2 seasons lost ~100-150mAh capacity while THD is still 5050mAh (from 4.2 to 3.3V @0.5C)

As for CNHL Black - seems it's close to 55C G++: heats up slightly more but has a true capacity of 5Ah while G++ and Graphenes usually come at 4850-4900mAh. Good part - I paid only 57$ shipped.

Nice work on your test. As far as knowing the chemistry I'm only speculating based on cost. It's safe to assume we're not going to get the good stuff at half the price. Unfortunately the greater risk is getting the cheap stuff at the cost of the expensive stuff. That's where we need to rely on brand reputation and/or the experiences of others over time. Like you mentioned with the Turnigy, the actual material grade won't show it's true colors until the 2nd or 3rd season. All load and IR testing do is give us the capabilities when evaluated.

Joe
May 24, 2019, 04:26 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfetter
Joe,
This is what I would be interested in you summarizing after all your time spent. I'm sure this data is in here mixed around but just a simple, summarized, single post (one or multiple brands if they qualify) of the following:
1. General best-of-breed LiPo brand: It doesn't have to win every test or be the lightest but can I trust purchasing this brand and getting a quality, competitive pack 95% of time?

Presently I split my purchases between Dinogy V2 and HobbyKing (or CNHL) Graphenes. It depends on what plane I'm buying for, whether it can handle the extra weight of the Graphenes or needs more then 150A (the V2's reasonable service limit). When HK rolled everything into the Panthers I stocked up on the 10K MAH 15C Pros (Bandit packs baby!) and moved to CNHL because I didn't need the extra power or want the added weight. My experience is you can count on Dinogy 95%+ of the time and Mark is one of the best at standing behind his packs. One phone call, no muss no fuss. I would say that HK and CNHL are at 95% now but I buy with the awareness that I get what I get unless I want to jump through hoops, sometimes too many.

I wanted to give the new Hyperion 6000's a try but there's no inventory anywhere and our friend HyperionRocks appears to be AWOL, even from his own thread.


2. Optimum storage conditions: How do I ensure long life when not in-use, what storage temp & voltage and how long before "checking" on them is recommended?

I storage charge religiously within minutes of getting home from the field, it's one of my rituals. When I'm testing and run a pack down to ~9% I immediately put it on the charger to get the voltage back up. I never put them away without first checking the balance and making corrections to < 0.010v when necessary. I again check the balance when I pull them out for charging and involve Waynes IR meter if things look hinky. If my EDF packs have been sitting for ~90 days I run at least one cycle at 7C before using them. I will also typically run the pack (pair) in the plane to check WOT current to verify it's still got the same mojo. I never run a pack that isn't balanced <0.010v even if I have to discharge it a few percent so I can re-balance charge it. If it won't balance on the charger I'll pull Waynes meter out and determine if I have a cell that's failing. If not I will try shocking it with high amps then balance charge it again. I won't use a pack in composite jets that won't balance to that level. Foamy's or 3D it's a "so what" AFAIC. I don't take any measures regarding storage temperature unless the garage gets over 90 degs, then I'll plug in the mini-fridge I keep my packs in (cool not cold) . It generally doesn't freeze in Wa. There may be better practices regarding storage temperature but I've just never read anything that convinced me of it.

3. General cycles I can expect when used within spec and stored per conditions above?

I'm going into my 3rd season abusing Graphenes (pretty much WOT down to 5-10%) and have seen no drop off in power after (at most) maybe 50 cycles. Dinogy's will drop somewhat into the third season but I routinely subject them to an actual 30C load and I cycle them much more then the Graphenes. I maiden with the lighter Dinogy's and will often fly those in place of the heavy packs - so they see twice the cycle frequency but I try never to run them below ~20%.


4. General lifespan if stored per conditions above and used less than the expected cycle limit?

I've never kept any pack long enough to put 100 cycles on it, if I put 25 cycles on a pack per season that's me working it hard. I spread my use over a number of packs so I have no personal knowledge other then the fact I no longer use the 5000 class Revos because I've had more then a few go weak under my abusive ways. I measure lifespan in cycles because my understanding is most jet packs will start to lose the edge I want into the 3rd year, even if they sit on the shelf properly stored. However I use my 2200's and such sport flying until they puff or won't get out of their own way

Joe
Last edited by MCSGUY; May 24, 2019 at 05:00 PM.
May 24, 2019, 04:49 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by rampman
Joe, you asked how accurate the capacity is on the Rhino 5000 packs a while back. I finally got around to seeing my numbers and they are:
4915 out
5079 in

As with any capacity test, you have to use some common sense. Usually when I get numbers this far out I re-do the test but draining a 5000 size pack from 4.2/cell to 3.0 at 1.0 amp takes more time than I want to spend and I do not know how many deep discharges one can take before permanent damage occurs...but law of averages says it is safe to say these are using true 5000 mah cells.

Rick
Thanks Rick!


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