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Nov 09, 2012, 04:27 AM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
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Discussion

Battery Load Test Comparisons


CLICK HERE 2018-2019 C RATING SUMMARY LIST
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CLICK HERE FOR 2019 CLIFF NOTES & REVIEWS
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CLICK HERE FOR 2019 PROOF CHARTS
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CLICK HERE FOR 2018 CLIFF NOTES & REVIEWS
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CLICK HERE FOR 2018 PROOF CHARTS
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CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS ON MAXAMPS "170C" PACK TEST RESULTS, COURTESY OF WAYNE GILES
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CLICK HERE FOR LipoRatings.Com
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CLICK HERE FOR HIGH POINT INDEX
Last edited by MCSGUY; Sep 05, 2019 at 01:28 PM.
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Nov 09, 2012, 03:38 PM
Space Coast USA
hoppy's Avatar
Interesting the comparison between C ratings - The 25C rated packs are right up there with the 60C rated packs.

What is "reserve voltage? How is it calculated?
Nov 09, 2012, 04:02 PM
Dude, I do fly all day long!
rcalldaylong's Avatar
nice setup! on the gens ace 25c vs 60c...If I remember correctly I think everydayflyer's test echoed the same thing.

it's also interesting to see how well the nanos held up though.

I recently bought a couple of Haiyins and they do hold up fairly well....
it looks like the Haiyins are right up there and even a tad ahead of the comparable 25C gens ace.
Nov 09, 2012, 04:46 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP

Thread index


Page 6:
Data acquisition hardware
Velox w/ Schubeler DS94-HST as 12S Test Rig

Page 25:
12S Test Rig Setup
Thrust Sensor Hysterisis & Dead Weight Validation Graphs

Page 26:
12S Test Series Graphs
Product Review and Pricing Comparison

Page 28:
Thunder Power's new G8 Test Results

Page 34:
Why Measured IR is Useful, courtesy of JJ604

Page 39:
The Damage Caused by Trusting Thunder Power

Page 42:
6S EDF Based Test Rig

Page 44:
6S Test Results

Page 53:
10AWG Heat Calculation, courtesy of WAYNE GILES

Page 56:
7S Test Results

Page 61:
40C 12S Comparisons

Page 63:
Why Cell Matching is Critical, courtesy of WAYNE GILES

Page 65:
30C Comparisons

Page 66
Compare Revo SilverHV 4.27v vs. 4.20v

Page 72
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show... tested at 40C

Page 73
China Hobby 50C packs tested at 30C

Page 73
Dynamic EDF Based Test Rig

Page 74
Brand Evaluation Synopsis

Page 75
20C Test Comparisons

Page 78
40C Test Comparisons

Page 79
Test Comparisons

Page 84
Dynamic (EDF) Thrust & Efflux Comparisons

Pages 78, 85 & 119
Chinese Mfg Facts 1, courtesy of RevoJohn
Chinese Mfg Facts 2, courtesy of RevoJohn
Chinese Mfg Facts 3, courtesy of RevoJohn

Page 109
Life Cycle Test System

Page 111
Glacier, GensAce ,Pulse - Rebadge?

Page 119
Brand Evaluation Synopsis

Page 179
A Lipo Behavior Thesis, courtesy of JJ604

Page 182
2015 Comparison Roaring Top vs. Revolectrix

Page 211
IR Readings vs. Break In Cycle Comparison

Page 215
8000mah Pack Tests

Page 233
Retest of Failed NeuEnergy 8300

Page 235
Update on 8000mah Test Series

Page 243
Revo HV, Pulse Ultra and Hyperion G6 Comparison

Page 243
5000-6000mah Pack ESR Measurements

Page 245
Standardized Procedure for Measuring ESR

Page 257
5000-6000mah Tests

Page 277
12S EDF Based Pack Tests

Page 335
Performance Test, Courtesy of SockRat

Page 352
Performance Tests, Courtesy of FeloPaul

Page 361
6S/5000 Tests Summary
4.20v Charts
4.35v Charts

Page 367
How Graphenes Changed the IR Landscape

Page 376
Over Charging Your Packs? Read This

Page 418
12S vs. 13S Comparison in "12S" EDF

Page 420
Evaluation: HK 10K 15C Pro's as Saddle Packs?

Page 455
HYPERION G8's vs. DINOGY Tests

Page 469
IR Essentials Courtesy of JJ604

Page 477
JFetter's 800g Rankings Dot Chart

Page 485
Multi-C Ranking Dot Charts

Page 517:
Details Regarding HYPERIONS 6000/6S IR Variations
Last edited by MCSGUY; Sep 05, 2019 at 01:25 PM.
Nov 09, 2012, 10:27 PM
Space Coast USA
hoppy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSGUY
The lipo voltage checker shows the value as a percentage of full charge. I believe an average of 4.20 volts per cell would be 100% and 3.20 volts per cell would be 0%
So that was the voltage of the pack under load? 5% reserve would mean the underload voltage was about 3.6V. Did you record the voltage under load or just the % from the cell checker?

BTW, thanks for posting this data, it's very informative.
Nov 09, 2012, 10:31 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP

Proof charts for 2019 test summary's


Summary's Located on Page 1
Last edited by MCSGUY; Jun 25, 2019 at 04:02 PM.
Nov 10, 2012, 12:10 PM
Shut up and fly
papabatman's Avatar
very interesting
Nov 11, 2012, 05:21 AM
Registered User
AaahhhhhhhHHH... now THIS is what we want to see manufacturers SHOW us... Not some hyped thumb sucked figure !!!!
Nov 11, 2012, 08:00 AM
Registered User
For under $50 you can build a constant current discharger: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1107072
Then you can directly compare your results with other peoples' results.
Nov 11, 2012, 02:22 PM
Registered User
It is a very correct aproach
The big load comparsion is giving the real imfo about the battery. not the stickers on it!
I have posted before the discharged curves at big loads.



It is 4000 80C made 2011 weight 127 gr/cell full discharged 200 Amps



It is 5000 65C made 2012 weight 133 gr/cell full discharged 275 Amps
You can see the difference betwin the original and the copy



It is 6600 65C made Oct 2012 weight 133 gr/cell.
Nov 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
aka JetMan Joe
MCSGUY's Avatar
Thread OP

2019 Cliff Notes & Reviews


ONCE UPON A TIME...

So here I am, minding my own business and this guy comes along and tells me he’s selling the best lipos in the world! And I say “Oh yeah!?” And he says “Yeah, they’ll beat anything out there”. And I say “anything?” And he says “yeah, anything. And they’re the lightest packs in the world too!”. So I says to the boys “how about we take a Panther to this 800 gram light weight and beat him within an inch of his life?” We all started snickering because we knew how this story ends and it wasn't gonna’ be pretty (for him ).

Eventually he decides we all need to get along and I shouldn’t be expecting his 800 gram monkey to take on my 900 gram gorilla. And that’s how this test series started. A true (but embellished) story

WHY NOW?

Actually the timing is good. Although I appreciate my heavy Graphenes, the power comes at a weight penalty. They’re one of eRC’s great solutions and I always bring some with me to the field. But it seems I inevitably reach for my lighter packs first - especially on maidens. So when HyperionRocks said his G8’s were going to make up for his G7’s broken promises I was interested.

The fact is 6S ~5000mah pack weight varies between 725 and 930 grams and test vastly different. So I've broken the testing into 2 classes: 800g and 900g. For this series the 800g class are all packs weighing less than 850 grams. Obviously the 900g class are those weighing more. The 900g's were thoroughly tested for the 2018 update topping out at a cool running 55C continuous level. That provides extra margin over the fairly continuous 150A - 170A I frequently need. So the 800g class are worth exploring. Especially since there are now some new low cost contenders

TEST APPROACH

For anyone new to the thread on RCGroups, the tests involve discharging a pack as low as ~20% through a fixed load. This is very much similar to what we see in high power EDF's operated near WOT for most of a flight. Pack performance is recorded using data acquisition hardware, software and procedures frequently utilized in Aerospace research efforts. By improving the process over time and calibrating using 3 independent reference standards the data exceeds the 3 sigma standard deviation in accuracy.

This approach has exposed brands shipping product having connectors and power leads that routinely fell off at half the load claimed. Its revealed cell designs having under rated power tabs that quickly grew brittle and often broke. And it's allowed us to have a clearer understanding of how pack chemistry reacts at elevated temperatures.

THE REST OF THE STORY

If you don’t have one get yourself a real IR meter, one built for that purpose. It’s no secret I’m partial to Wayne’s design, especially with the improvements RCG’s Ramp man has added (Buy Here or Here). My kind of extreme load testing points out brands that can manage their heat under duress. It also gives you a feel for how hard you can push (I call it Lipo "over clocking" ). But your IR meter will show you what actually arrives at your doorstep and how it holds up as you use it. And if you’re one of the majority who just want your lipo to last as long as possible this particular meter precisely lays out your pack's optimum limits. Consider my testing as your "lie detector" and your IR meter your "truth detector". If you have any question about its value read this now: IR Essentials

MORE THINGS I'M CONVINCED OF BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT

I am now convinced there are presently no (none, nada, zip) ~5000mah packs weighing under 800 grams able to sustain a 35C continuous discharge without overheating. End of story. The only difference between one that claims 100C and another claiming 45C is how big a lie the supplier believes they need to tell in order to separate you from your money.

In the real world where 6S voltage is sucked down faster than a pack can push it back up there are also no 5200, 5800 or 6000 MAH packs that weigh under 800 grams. There are only ~5000 mAh packs. So that's another label fiction you can ignore.

If maximum sustained power is your objective buy heavy. And for goodness sake don’t even look at the bright shiny new label (except to avoid the brands we’ve seen willing to ship substandard product)

WHAT'S NEW

Dot Charts! A proven format enabling a quick evaluation for you to identify the pack that best fits your needs. It uses simple graphics to rank packs based on Temperature, Average Watts, Voltage Maintained, Cell QC, Watts/Gram and Price. I've also included a "HYPE" column to rank label BS factor. I admit that one's not very scientific, but it lets us start to push back on channel integrity (or lack thereof). Be aware it only compares packs against the others tested. I've incorporated the data on the 800g class packs acquired during the 2018 testing. However I only had info on 25C and 35C tests. So the 30C and 40C charts will only show the packs tested this year. The others will show both years.

Web Site! All data developed for this thread is now sent to Web Master Jack Fetter (JFetter) to post on LipoRatings.com. Jack will be adding his own content and soliciting contributions from others such as John Julian (JJ604). This is an exciting development that will expand the flow of information and make it easier to point others to it. Thank You Jack! (He also did the final edit on this post )

Links to the Graphs! So less clutter around the summary charts. The graphs are developed as the proof behind the numbers, so you don't need to slog through them. However the links will still allow quick access if you want to drill down to more detail.

6S ROUND UP, THE CLIFF NOTES

Dinogy Black
(5000/65C) 06/2019
The only reason most of us don't associate Dinogy with the Label Liars Club is because MarkF shoots straight about industry hype. He provides his own truth overlay to compensate. He sells the Dinogy black label as a 25C solution and for that it is ideal. This is the least expensive light weight pack (in fact the lightest weight pack in the stack). It was really unfair of me to test it at the higher loads, but I just couldn't resist Regardless it held up very well, never showing signs of stress. On the upside, it totally dominated the MaxAmps and Pulse packs that stunk the place up last season.

Dinogy V2
(5000/70C) 05/2019
These are sold as a 30C solution and as always it delivered. Historically Dinogy is the one to beat for zero defect deliveries. In almost every way I could measure, up to and including the 35C burn it's a lighter weight, lower cost version of Hyperions 5200 G8. Unfortunately (for Dinogy) HobbyStar's entry presented as a real threat to the V2's dominance in the lightweight space. The V2 is going to have to lean hard on its 15g lighter weight and essentially perfect quality record to fend off this newcomer.

HobbyStar
(5200/75C) 06/2019
If I didn't know better, I'd say the supplier handpicked this pack for me to test. Since I know that's not the case, I just have to say it's cell matching quality was as good as it gets. It held up well, never showing a sign of stress even at 35C. This pack tracked the Dinogy V2 and Hyperion 5200 G8 at every turn and step. It looks like the real deal at a bargain price. I'm too new to the brand to have history on its QC legs. But if all their delivery's match the quality of this one I may have to re-evaluate my choice in light weight packs.

Hyperion G7
(5000 45C) 05/2018
Too heavy, too hot and too expensive. Otherwise it was perfect. So good in fact Hyperion is discontinuing it. If it sold for $110 instead of $170, I might be disappointed. Since it doesn’t, I say good riddance.

Hyperion G8
(6000 45C) 04/2019
Good grief, this pack is fabulous! Of course Hyperion lied about it being 45C capable, it's too light for that but I would fly it in anything that needed a very strong 35C. I would even trust it in 40C'ish applications. And it's only 11 grams heavier than the HobbyStar and 26 grams heavier than Dinogy's V2 which are both limited to 30C applications IMO. So it's a truly lovely product. Honestly, If the pack wasn't so darn expensive, I'd sell every 6S/5000 pack I own and use these exclusively. IF THEY WERE ACTUALLY AVAILABLE IN THE US! ~3 months ago I purchased the last one available from China and paid an extra $50 in shipping for the privilege of having one in time to test. As of today the promise of an eventual US supply is still out there. I'm having a hard time understanding why Hyperion rattles my cage, spends big bucks for continuous advertising and yet hasn't been able to land ANY of their 6S flag ship products in over 4 months!? Gimme’ a break

Hyperion G8
(5200 45C) 04/2019
What's the magic behind a 6S/5200 labeled pack being heavier than a 6S/6000 pack If the 5200 were priced more competitively I would have a very positive attitude towards it. It's a very good pack. It performs maybe a pinch above the V2 but not to a meaningful degree. I'm told shipping is free in the US but that assumes there's US stock. Even if stock were available 6 of the 9 packs I just purchased provided free shipping (even the $120 HobbyStar and $122 Scorpion). So why should I pay $170 for a very good pack when there are other very good packs readily available for considerably less money? And let’s face the facts: trust is earned. Don't expect me to believe the G8 will last longer then dirt right after you've spent years trying to sell us G7 Kool-Aid.

MaxAmps
(5450 120C) 05/2018
This a retread review from the 2018 testing. But since I purchased two different packs and both were bad to a criminal degree I guess I've paid to be able to slam this supplier twice. Just look at the charts, they say it all better than my words can. MaxAmps recently introduced a 1450mah Graphene for the drone suckers, I mean customers. It's labeled 175C!! Maybe these guys used to be in politics so tell bigger lies if the first ones aren't believed.

Since the drone racers need quick pops of power with frequent recovery maybe MaxAmps might get away with the con for a while. Wayne’s testing a couple right now so we shall see (soon).

NanoTech Plus
(5000/70C) 06/2019
This is a true 40C pack. I pushed it pretty hard down to its very bottom and its temperature exceeded the upper limit by a few degrees. Under normal style flying (where you at least throttle down to land ) it would have remained below the limit. It's also very low priced. Again, it's all about good design AND weight. This guy barely qualifies as an 800g class unit at 839 grams. But I consider it a great "tweener": lighter, more robust and less expensive than the HK Bolt it performed a little better than.

Pulse Ultra
(5000/65C) 05/2018
This too is a retread review based on 2018 data. But it was so bad it deserves to be remembered. Mainly because it is suspiciously the same exact weight, to the gram as the MaxAmps unit. They failed so much alike I'm wondering if GensAce, the private label HO is mother to both.

Revo 435 Blend
(5000/70C) 06/2018
A morality tale about the risk in rebadging a 4.20 4400mah pack as a 5000mah unit because you write "4.35v" on the label. Just let a 900g class pack be a 900g class pack.

Roaring Top
(5100/80C) 04/2018
Close to the same weight as the better performing NanoTech Plus. I'd definitely trust it as a 35C unit. This particular sample suffered a moderate CellQC deficiency which held it back a bit. I don't believe that's a common issue with the brand so I'm not going to criticize it. It's reasonably priced.

Scorpion Gold
(5000/45C) 05/2019
This unit also suffered a bit due to a very moderate CellQC issue. It presented as a solid 30C unit and if it were 40 grams lighter it would compete well against the HobbyStar and Dinogy V2. On the plus side it's considerably less expensive than the Dinogy and its extra weight made it better at handling the 35C load. As with its sibling Platinum unit when it struggles (as it did under the 35C load) it gets "physical" by swelling up a bit but it refuses to overheat. It's something I haven't seen before. Fortunately when it cools down the swelling goes away.

Scorpion Platinum
(5100/75C) 06/2019
A very solid, robust 35C unit. It gets pumped up when drained to the bottom at 40C but absolutely refuses to overheat. It was the darndest thing to stand over. Yeah, I think it's something a little different than the usual and I liked it! I'm serious, the 40C burn was like watching a powerlifter giving everything he has to make the lift and succeeding in red faced, muscle throbbing victory. (Please don't judge me, you had to be there ) On the downside it was the heaviest pack in the stack. Another 5 grams and it would have had to compete in the 900g weight class.

Spektrum Smart
(5000/100C) 06/2019
I'd have nothing bad to say about this unit if they lied less on their label. These guys must have smoked a joint with the MaxAmps crew. This isn't even a strong 30C pack! It couldn't handle 25C as well as the $115 Dinogy Black did and they want $160 for it!?? ($175 after tax). They call it "smart" because they must think they're pretty smart to hang a totally proprietary connector on it. It gives them the power to stand on the necks of green, inexperienced newbie’s who don't have a clue how bad their being fleeced. Look, at $130 and even a 65C label I'd say good on you, it's a well-made very light weight pack that will handle the type of planes you sell very well. You deserve to make a little extra profit on it. But at $175 after your required locations tax you guys are no better than Thunder Power! You're using your brand name to take advantage of kids and parents who are trusting you. I can't believe Rick Stephens would approve of this

Thunder Power Rampage
(5000/80C) 04/2018
A Thunder Power pack is a Thunder Power pack. The cells don't match well, it provides so-so performance and it's overpriced: It's a Thunder Power.

Turnigy HD
(5000/60C) 06/2018
This pack provided the most power for the buck in the stack. It's lighter than the NanoTech Plus, Roaring Top and Scorpion Platinum yet it will keep up with the best of them at a bargain $75 cost. It doesn't contain the best secret sauce so don't expect more than a couple peak seasons but for low frequency users who don't mind the weight it's a good bet. The Turnigy brand experienced a makeover recently that (at least for the short term) reduced significantly their historically terrible QC record. That's why I'm supporting it for the moment but I have to admit I'm kinda’ waiting for the other shoe to drop. If something is too good to be true, it probably is...
Last edited by MCSGUY; Jul 29, 2019 at 10:00 PM.
Dec 26, 2012, 09:19 PM
Сделайте Америку Великой Снова
7oneWo1f's Avatar
Awesome thread, looking forward to the brushless or pulsed inductive load testing, just to learn what sort of differences there might be.

Did you use the same resistance for all of the tests, or did you pick different taps for each battery?
Dec 26, 2012, 10:12 PM
They Call him Dead!
YellowJacketsRC's Avatar
Yeah, I'm in!

Thanks!
Dec 27, 2012, 01:28 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneWolfRC
Awesome thread, looking forward to the brushless or pulsed inductive load testing, just to learn what sort of differences there might be.

Did you use the same resistance for all of the tests, or did you pick different taps for each battery?
No the load is not the same. It can not be the same if the IR of the Cell are not equal. But if it is programed, could be the same.
The tests are with purpously designated devices Load tester with heat extraction and calculas


The devices allow to test the battery performance with algoritm and/or governor controlling the battery figures and change the resistance as per load function programmed.

One example for such a test. (It is a racing battery for Boat 6800 30C, developed over 6600 65C)




On some of battery the loads aplied are bigger then the C-rate to test the strenght of the tabs, or analyse the electrodes after the test.
I have posted the curves for 5000 25C discharged with 150 amps (30C)
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1786416
One more good project 8000 25C (but in weight limits)


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