I am a noob and my only experience is with an AR Drone and MacGyver RC kit.

Please indulge my ignorance and help give me some information if you will.

I am an architectural photographer and my goal is to get a multi to use as a still and video camera platform. For stills I'm leaning towards needing to use a Nex 5R with 16-50 zoom (About 500 grams.) I may also use it for video but mostly will use a GoPro Hero 3 Black for that. I expect to shoot the stills while hovering reasonably stationary.

So my first concern is with servo controlled 2 axis gimbal mounts. I know they automatically adjust for the pitch and roll of the aircraft. But will I be able to manually adjust the tilt angle (vertical aiming) in addition to the automatic compensation for the aircraft's movement. My idea is to use wifi in the camera or an FPV camera to align my still images. (Maybe use the Nex's video out via a transmitter.) I assume high end gimbals for video can do this to allow tracking but I really don't see any mention on the lower end gimbals nor what control on the transmitter that would allow one to move this in gradual amounts.

My second concern is deciding what size and design of multi to use for this application. I was first attracted to the Y6 design after looking at this... from Multiwii: Carbon SCARAB YSiix v2. I like the position of the camera but it is just a single axis gimbal. Any opinions about going this route or what I should choose instead? I think I want the redundancy of 6 motors and like the 120 degree space of this design. I want to be able to shoot directly forward from level hover and be able to tilt down from there using a servo on the camera mount.

Please buy something small and learn to fly first. Putting $1,000 worth of camera gear in the air will lead to some VERY expensive lessons learned. A DJI F550 Naza/GPS is good and you can take the Naza/GPS with you to your next craft. Once you learn line of sight, then add the FPV gear and learn that. You probably wont be happy with the WiFi because of it's limited range and 2ish second lag. Just because flying multirotors looka easy on youtube doesn't replace time behind the sticks. Even seasoned pilots have mechanical failures and if you aren't prepared or don't have the skill sets you will put people and property at risk. These aren't an AR drone, the craft you are talking about buying will be 5-6lbs and have carbon filled propellers spinning at 8,000k RPM. Imagine someone dropping a 5lb rock on your car, on the roof of your house, on your family. Then imagine them attaching spinning blades that destroy flesh (you'll find pics here from time to time) and doing it again.

A couple quick tips that can help:
Y6 are in fact better in wind than a flat hex but do suffer some from reduced flight times. Personally I will probably move to a Y6 sometime soon.

Some gimbals only level the camera, you'll have to look for one that will allow you to adjust the pitch. I've seen it happen dozens of times, people buy 2-3 $250 gimbals before realizing they aren't good enough for professional video. THEN they spend the money on something suitable. I am using the AG550v2 ($825?) and a Hoverfly Gimbal controller ($360). Yes the Naza has gimbal control but the output rate isn't enough to keep up with the crafts movements. On top of that its always better to have your gimbal controller on the same side as your vibration isolation. Yes you can adjust the tilt on the AG550v2.

As far as the model itself, you will want something built for AP. Gary and Andrey are in the process of designing and building their own Y6 (Lobster is current name). If their customer service and R&D is half of what it has been on their gimbal it will be amazing. I still STRONGLY suggest you use the F550 initially, you have a lot to learn. I am still using a F550 and as long as you are hyper anal about balancing you can get great results (I am using a Sont rx100 because of their OIS. Their OIS just absorbs the little bounces and corrections so less post stab is needed.

My setup:
Stock F550 ARF
Naza + GPS
Fatshark Predator RTF with upgraded bluebeam antenna
AG550v2 Gimbal with Sony rx100
Turnigy 45C 4S 5000mah batteries
Graupner 10x5 props

I am extremely heavy for the motors and they get warm after 5-6 minutes which is good because that is as long as the batteries last . For more help and a great guy to buy from you can contact Tony (Z06Tony here on RCG) over at rc-drones.com. He sells the DJI/Graupner products and assembles too.

Link to the thread containing info on the Gimbal and Y6.

Gary = GGoodrum
Andrey = askman

Thanks for taking the time for a detailed reply. I will read up on all suggestions. So far I took a brief look at the F550 and will consider that of course. The gimbal and controller you mentioned might be more than I want to spend initially but if I have no choice I will go for it either at first or after a while. I am not planning to buy anything for several months and am just gathering information and learning.

Maybe I should make it clear that I am not planning to rush into this and will get flying experience first. I also plan to fly it quite a bit before I use a camera on it or try to do jobs with it. The FPV or camera wifi image will simply be used to briefly align the camera... not to fly it. This is quite easy from the AR Drone - I look down briefly to see if the image is lined up and take the still shot. I simply want the gyro to hold it reasonably level and have the ability to adjust pitch... I can always shoot a bit loose and crop the image to get perfect alignment. If I need to fly simulators first and/or take training I will do that.

I am thinking much more of using this as a still camera platform at first. So I won't need the same flying skills required for video. The idea is to just get it up around 20 to 30 feet in the air relatively near to me. That is why I figure I could use the wifi to aim the camera. I am aware of NAZA + GPS and that is what I plan to use to try to keep the hover in a reasonable area. I just want to make clear that my initial goal is not to fly any significant distances and the slower the better in general. There will be nobody anywhere near me and I will mostly be shooting houses and amenities (pools, tennis courts, etc. ) on the property of my clients.

So any idea what is a reasonably priced if not low end 2 axis gyro that will hold a Nex 5 and adjust pitch? What do I look for in a transmitter to control this?

But I guess what I also don't understand is the advantage of buying a smaller quad first. The model I linked to is not all that much bigger and heavier than more basic quads and claims to have relatively safer props. (Less damage from them.) I added up the prices and the biggest difference between the one I mentioned and lower end ones is mostly the electronics - transmitter, NAZA, batteries, charger, power supply, camera mount, etc. The frame and motor price differences are not very great proportionately. And the camera gimbal would not necessarily be installed when I first start flying the machine. It does look strong enough to position the Nex the way I want... eg. not necessarily used for video. I'll probably use the GoPro for that. Even the videos are probably going to be simple fly overs initially ... not complex movements.

It looks like the Multiwii Y6 kit with the NAZA GPS, the lowest 8 channel Futaba, etc. would be in the $1500 range. I see the price of the props and carbon arms are not that great so replacing them in a crash would not be so bad. (Assuming no camera on board.) Of course the camera mount is not up to what I want and I don't know if I could buy it without that.

I fully understand that I might move on to something better than this after a year or so once I see how my initial clients respond to what I'm doing. A $1500-$3000 machine would not be too big a deal to move to a back-up role or sell if I need to move on and have income from these projects.

BTW perhaps the Sony RX100 will give adequate still results for me. (I'm not sure about that.) Is it possible and feasible to attach a transmitter to its HDMI video out? The 16-50 zoom for the Nex is powered so I might be able to adjust that via wifi if it is within range. (My assistant could do that and even help with the framing and shooting while I am flying.)

I think the suggestion for something smaller to learn on is because they are WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY harder to fly than you think. Being an Ar.Drone guy myself, those things are a joke compared to these flying machines.

Buy at least 10 times the props your machine has as spares, and about half that in motor shafts. Your machine will behave much differently when putting a camera on it - the extra weight makes a huge difference.

At least you mentioned you have an assistant to help you out, that's always helpful. And that you will take it easy to learn how to fly is a good thing too.

But I'm telling you, you're in for a big surprise the first time you push that stick forward (in comparison to the Ar.Drone...)

A lot to cover... i'll attempt to do it in order and please re-ask if I skip something.

Please don't take the precautions I listed as directed towards you, it's just we see a lot of "I saw dis kewl vid on the utubez & I want to fly 1 wif a kamera 2!!". I start most any "I am a noob and need guidance" threads that way. Then in the future when people stumble across this is might help them as well.

Flying FPV can be just as safe as flying LOS (line of sight) and a lot of people find it easier. Of course when equipment fails you might still need LOS skills to get you back on the ground. I would guess I fly 95% FPV now and only fly LOS when my FPV gear gets too much interference or when landing in tight quarters. They make switches that allow you to switch between cameras too. Example: Switch is up and you are looking from your flight cam... switch is down you are looking from your gimbal mounted cam. The reason this is important is because it is hard flying with a camera that never tilts. You can't judge which way the craft is leaning.

Simulators are good if you are not familiar with a Transmitter in your hands. I practiced Phoenix before I got mine and it really helped with orientation. My buddies also like coming over, getting drunk, and ramming turbine jets into the ground. They only have one quad but you get enough experience for it to help. Version 4.0 (all upgrades with Phoenix are free) even added FPV. Once again a lot of fun in the jets

If you are looking for strictly stills you have a ton of options. I started out with just a GoPro Hero2 hard mounted on the top of my F550. Sure the props were int he picture but it helped me learn how to line up shots and fly FPV (you can grab still images from the GoPro video... not super high resolutions but will work for clients needing small images for a real estate website). I then went and fabricated a mount from plexiglass and stuck on a $12 set of landing gear made for collective pitch helicopters. This got the props out of the picture but gave me too much wobble for video. I then went with the AG550v2. BTW the Y6 you talked about earlier is roll only... no tilt to aim the camera down. More on recommendations later....

Honestly I wouldn't spend the money on a gimbal unless you are ready to buy a good one. If you want one only for stills I would just use a hard mounted camera and practice smooth flying and lining up shots. Then when you get your high resolution pictures you can work on leveling them and cropping out the excess. What controls the shutter? A IR Shutter Control. I personally don't have one right now (the Sony rx100 doesnt have an IR shutter control, I could give tips on this if needed) but that is what people use. It is plugged into your receiver and then controller on your transmitter. Flip a switch up and down and it can take the picture or start/stop video (I believe). All you need is an extra channel on your TX. Also you can do what I mentioned above and extract images from video... lower resolution but can sometimes work.

Safer props? No such thing. If anything those 3 blade props are worse for AP. Reason one they are less efficient because they have more surface area to cut through the air. Reason 2 is they are flexible and under load will "cone" often times causing vibrations and every time killing efficiency. Reason 3 being prop balancing and tracking. If the props aren't balanced or they don't track the same then you will get vibrations and vibrations KILL video. I fly with Graupner 10x5 props. They are expensive (learn with cheaper Gemfan carbon filled props then film with these) but very durable and VERY stiff. Sure they are sharp but honestly you don't want ANY prop hitting you at 10,000rpm, there will be blood. Safe practices > safe props

You need to think about your transmitter too. To get all of the functionality out of the Naza you need 7 channels (4 channels for flying, 1 channel for flight mode, and 2 for in air adjustments often time for adjusting gains). This leaves you will only 1 channel on an 8 channel TX, will it be used for shutter control or for tilting your camera? You have to have the first 5 I listed earlier and because of my needs I am about to lose one of my in flight adjustments. Right now I can adjust my basic and attitude gains separately (needed on windy days) and use my 8th channel for camera tilt. I want to add the switch that allows me to go between cameras so I will probably ditch my basic gain adjustment. What happens if I want to add shutter control? I would lose ALL ability to adjust per my wind conditions in the field. This is where a bigger TX can help. I have a Futaba 8FGS and when the time comes I could just add a second receiver and use it for gimbal/camera controls because I have plenty of knobs and switches available. I won't go into why this won't work with the SBUS system and my current 14channel SBUS receiver unless you really want your head to explode.

The rx100 will transmit video out via the HDMI port right next to the tripod screw on the bottom. I said it that way because it makes mounting it a chore, one I am about to tackle. If you look through some of GGoodrums (Gary) posts you will find some of his rx100 videos. He owns almost every camera you can fly and when I asked him which he preferred he said the rx100. Now his goal is video but I have seen pictures from the rx100 that are pretty good. There is also equipment you can buy to control the rx100's shutter but they are more mechanical, I will be tackling that one soon too.

I would really stay away from WiFi, it just isn't that good for what we do mainly because of lag. If you are in a congested area it will also cause issues. I would guess you would use a 5.8 FPV system but I didn't look at where you are from and all countries have different laws. If flying alone with a fixed mount I would suggest aiming the camera down 5 degrees and fly FPV from your Nex5 hitting the IR Shutter switch on your transmitter when lined up. If you have an assistant you can fly LOS and they can wear the goggles/look at the screen and tell you when to take a picture. You could go as far as both of you flying FPV at the same time and your assistant having their own transmitter controlling the pitch of the camera and taking pictures. Of course you would need to be on different video frequencies but that isn't hard to overcome.

You may want to consider talking to Gary/Andrey about their gimbal without servos and not add the Hoverfly Gimbal controller. Their gimbal has $250 is servos alone but if you want only tilt function and were ok with hard mounting you could stick a cheap/dead servo in the roll and a cheap servo in the pitch and only enable the pitch. The Roll will just be a place holder. The reason they use those servos is because honestly it was the only way they could get the near perfect results they get. If you were to read through the entire thread they spent hundreds in not thousands on the servo testing. They also did the same for the vibration control and that is why they use 4 silicon grommets that cost $10/ea. I am a firm believer in saving money but not over quality/customer service. If you went this route all you would have to do when ready to transition to video is add the servos and gimbal controller and you are ready to roll! By the time you buy I would also assume their Y6 would be ready and it is built specifically for the gimbal.

Full size multis are harder to fly than a AR drone but when you get things like ATTI and GPS mode in the Naza it really helps the learning curve. I think I have broke/lost only 3 props in my entire flying career. And just to keep people from getting upset I need to tell you DO NOT use ATTI and GPS mode as a crutch, learn to fly in manual because when things go wrong you will need the manual flying skills. Here is an example of things going wrong. I checked the propnut preflight like I always do but had a tip over before I took off... and didn't check again....

DJI F550 Naza GPS - Lost a prop midflight (2 min 0 sec)

I am done... book complete. I just brain dumped everything I know saving you hours/days of research. Take it for what it is and good luck with your new drug addiction hobby business venture.

This is great advice and I'm taking it to heart. It is very hard to just read through the internet and get good perspective on this. It took me a while just to picture the questions I needed to ask. Thanks a lot and keep it coming if anyone has some other ideas.

I certainly was planning to learn to fly the thing without a camera mount on it... and take my time doing that. My main thought with the AR Drone and my RC Transmitter for it is just to get used to stick control and moving something through 3D space before I try something more demanding. So that is just step one in my mind. Most of my questions about camera mounts, FPV, etc. are so I can understand where to eventually go and have a reasonable plan to get there... hopefully not discarding more equipment than necessary at that point. Hence the reason to at least get a transmitter that I won't out grow. And I'll certainly check out to see if that Y6 is available when I'm ready to buy.

The F550 looks like a reasonable and affordable way to go so that may be my choice. And I can add the camera mount later. So I figure I am reading correctly that I should have more than 8 channels in my transmitter for future benefit on a camera mount/shutter control. As long as it can simply lift and position a Nex 5 within about a hundred foot area of me, it will cover most of my still needs. (Yes I might try the RX100 but want the Nex option.) For stills, I am only trying to do with the copter what I currently do from a 66 foot man lift. ($700+ a day rental) Do I have to worry about the frame breaking in crashes while I learn? If so are the parts readily available? I'm located in Maryland in the US.

The GoPro stills won't be adequate for my clients. It isn't just the low res but the wide lens and the need to correct the fisheye. I'll be shooting stills with moderate wide angles. When I shoot structures they generally need to look architecturally "correct." Shooting down at pools and other amenities and features should be very easy in comparison and offer more leeway for approach.

You can see the type of work I do here - http://alangoldstein.photoshelter.com/

You can also take the stills from the rx100 video the same way. You can also fix the gopro barrel distortion with some post work. With either option they won't be as sharp but could work in a pinch or a low res option. Here is an EXAMPLE of a frame pulled from the rx100. The camera was just shooting video in Auto mode, I was working on some vibration/bounce issues. At the full 1920x1080 it is VERY soft and not ultra high res but good if someone just wants very basic website photos, minimize it down and you can see. Not something that would be on your homepage but for a small business they'd love to have it on their website by their logo.

Beautiful pictures on your site! I love your use of color!

Yes the F550 frame has parts readily available, let me recommend Tony (Z06Tony here on RCG) with rc-drones.com. Tell him a hot cheerleader sent you . He sells everything DJI and also builds/tests if you feel the need. Great customer service and fast shipping.

You can get away with 8 channels but you might have to make compromises, it depends on what you want. 5 channels are required which leaves you 3. Options for those 3 are FPV/Main camera switch, Gimbal tilt, IR Shutter control, Basic or Attitude Gain controls, LED Lights (some people like them for LOS but don't want them on all the time), and probably one or two I am missing....

I just recently posted all of my specs... brb after some copy paste action...

EDIT** LOL it was this thread... wow I need to post less so I can keep up with it all.

I think I at least have a plan. Of course some of my clients use small images on their web site and to tell you the truth, the AR Drone shots are good enough for that. But since you looked at my site you see what my clients are used to so if I am going to use a helicopter in place of a lift, the Nex APS format is probably as low as I'd want to go. I have a Nex 6 and 16-50 on order.

Here are some tests with the AR Drone camera. Frankly if the still shot was higher res (I can correct the barrel distortion) and the video was stable I'd be pretty much set right now. These were made before I got the RC controller for it.

Helicopter panorama test (0 min 27 sec)

AR Drone interior tour 1 (2 min 10 sec)

Nice. Yeah the AR is nice for certain things but up high and in wind you will have issues. Honestly I think you will be pretty happy with a F550 and the hard mount/no servo AG550v2 if it is an option. I haven't done the math but I am pretty sure you can do that all under the $3k limit you were talking about, esp if you try it with the rx100 you already own.

F550 ARF = $318
Naza+GPS = $399
Graupner 10" props from rc-drones = $12/ea X10 $120 total with spares
Futaba 8FGS = $480
AG550v2 Gimbal = $825ish
Turnigy batteries I mentioned earlier = $110 for two shipped
Battery Charger = $50
----------------------
$2,300 up in the air.

Granted you'll be using the Naza to control the gimbal which will NOT get you professional quality video but will keep it plenty level for pictures and give you the option for adding the Hoverfly Gimbal controller for pro video later (you'll get the good servos with the $825). You'll need little things eventually like FPV gear ($300-400) and shutter control for the camera you'll be using. I mentioned earlier but have plenty of room under $3000. Heck you can even get the nex5 and still be under $3k.

EDIT** I get about 5ish minutes per battery... I have 4 and think it's adequate.

Thanks again. If I wait to buy the camera mount and better props I'll only need to spend about $1300-$1400 to be flying and learning. I have a balanced LiPo charger already. Is the 5 minute flying time due to the weight of a camera mount and camera? I think I'd like to get approx 10 minutes if possible but can live with 5. For the stills, I'll be fairly low unless they have pools and great landscaping as my clients are not selling roofs.

The GoPro is something I'd be buying anyway. I don't have an RX100 but will consider flying my Nex6 or getting a lighter Nex 5 or even Nex F3 when the time comes.

Yeah with less weight you'll get longer flight times

Hey guys, my name is Jeremy and this is my first post here. It's not my intention to hijack this thread but I am seeking to achieve a similar goal. I have been reading a lot of the threads here and I have found the information very helpful. Like the original poster I am looking for a stable platform for aerial photography. My RC experience is limited, I have been practicing using a simulator (Real Flight) and a Blade micro helicopter. I have been looking at the F550 with the Naza+GPS, is this a good place for me to start?

I plan to fly LOS without a camera first, then I plan to add a gopro camera. From my research I can't seem to find a low cost gimbal that gives good results (although the Quadframe looks interesting). When I get ready to add the camera I will probably just hard mount it. As I progress i would like to be able to use something larger like the Sony NEX-5.

I don't want to rely too heavily on the attitude/gps hold feature of the Naza. I already realize that this isn't going to be an overnight process, I know that it will take time to hone my skills. Other than the simulator and smaller RC's does anyone have any suggestions for learning? Is it okay to use the atti/gps hold of the Naza while I am learning? I plan to order the F550 and Naza within the new few weeks. I already have a charger, batteries, and a DX6i radio.

Pretty much everything I know and would suggest is in this thread, I basically did a full data dump.

I suggest using ATTI and GPS to learn actually.... but only out in an open field away from people between 5-50 feet from the ground. You will learn how the model acts and learn the basics of orientation and nose-in flying. Then in the same field under the same conditions, ditch the GPS. This will make you learn how to correct for wind while still keeping your altitude under control. Then ditch the ATTI and learn throttle control while doing the same maneuvers.

The GPS for Naza didn't exist when I learned back when the Naza was new. So I learned in ATTI, then MAN, and then added GPS which helps a lot when taking pictures and such.

Originally Posted by MCrites

Pretty much everything I know and would suggest is in this thread, I basically did a full data dump.

I suggest using ATTI and GPS to learn actually.... but only out in an open field away from people between 5-50 feet from the ground. You will learn how the model acts and learn the basics of orientation and nose-in flying. Then in the same field under the same conditions, ditch the GPS. This will make you learn how to correct for wind while still keeping your altitude under control. Then ditch the ATTI and learn throttle control while doing the same maneuvers.

The GPS for Naza didn't exist when I learned back when the Naza was new. So I learned in ATTI, then MAN, and then added GPS which helps a lot when taking pictures and such.

Thanks for the information, your previous post in this thread helped also. I remember seeing your video on Youtube (I have watched every multirotor video there). It's a good demonstration of why it's important to know how to fly manually also. How long have you been flying?