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Nov 06, 2003, 01:21 AM
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New Logo 10 test/video with a 7s2p pack of "Tanics"...


Today was like Christmas for me! First, I received my brand new Tanic 7s2p pack of the new 2200 mAh cells from Brian at RCToys. While it was charging, I fashioned a simple mount from some carbon tubing and attached it to my Logo 10. The pack fit perfectly, as you can see in the photos below, just like it was designed to be there in the first place.











Here's the kluged together 7s3p pack that the new one replaced...







Anyway, it was time to give the pack a whirl, so off to the field I went. My current setup in the Logo is a Hacker B50-14XL with one of Sean's nifty heatsinks (from HeliHobby...), a 13T pinion and a Hacker 48-3P controller. My original configuration, which worked quite well, was an Aveox 36/30/2 and a 5s3p configuration of TP 2050 cells. I then went to the big Hacker and tried a 6s3p configuration. It was pretty much a bust. The extra torque of the -14XL wasn't enough to overcome the extra weight of the motor and the three extra cells. Using KC's most excellent spreadsheet, I figured that going to 7s2p would work, if the cells could handle about 9C "bursts". I'm sure the TP cells can handle this but I couldn't find anywhere to get any 2p configured packs and Charlie is harder than heck to get a hold of these days. The best I could do was to try a 7s3p setup which, according to the spreadsheet, should have enough power to overcome the extra extra weight (!). It did in fact, have plenty of power when I flew it the other day, but it was so heavy that the frames flexed, whenever a hard turn was attempted. It was just too heavy.

I was basically stuck there when I got a call from Brian, that the new cells were in. Talk about perfect timing! He was good enough to put together a 7s2p pack, run a few tests and then got it to UPS in time to get it to me first thing this morning.

For the test, I again enlisted the help of my friend/instructor, Larry, who can do a much better job of giving the pack a thorough workout than I can. He's an accomplished 3D pilot, which is evident in the video (which can be accessed here...).

The first five minutes or so was spent getting the heli tuned up/trimmed correctly. It had so much torque, the tail was slipping to the right. It turns out that the the belt had worked loose. After adjusting the pitch ranges a bit, it was time to try pushing it a bit. There was one incident, about a minute or so in that we later figured was the blades overspeeding. It caused a powering back in the controller. Larry landed and we checked but everything was fine, so he continued. We were also encouraged by the cool temps.

The performance was nothing short of incredible! Headspeed was a solid 1900 RPM, even with the 515mm blades. The power was not like anything I've seen. I'm not sure the video does it justice, although Larry did his usual good job of cranking it around the sky. He said it was definitely the best he's ever seen/flown in this size range (30-50...).

He stopped at the first hint of power drop, although I'm not sure I could've felt the difference. The pack took back 3800 mAh so it still had some room. Total time in the air was 14:45. With my more "casual" flight style, I think I'll get 18-20 minutes.

At the end of the tests, I checked the temps again. The pack was about 107, the controller was 95 and the motor was 115. Very cool indeed!

Near as I can tell, KC's predicted numbers were pretty much right on the money. That means the pack was being pushed to about 9C, for the hard manuevering. I have no doubt it will easily take 10 or 11C for the same type of conditions. I'm going to continue testing this setup for awhile but I'm also going to try a 10s1p setup. For that I need a motor with a kV of around 800. I'm thinking maybe a Tango 45-08. For now though, I'm just going to be happy to fly this setup. I've definitely raised the bar a bit I think.

-- Gary
Last edited by GGoodrum; Nov 06, 2003 at 01:24 AM.
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Nov 06, 2003, 01:54 AM
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Ben74's Avatar
wow gary, that video looks great! the headspeed sounds very solid. this is exactly what i was hoping to see. i'm all over these puppies when they hit the market. btw, if these are the same cells as the CBPs, they definitely improve after three or four flights. was that the first cycle on the pack, or did brian cycle them a few times for you?

very exciting. now how am i going to get to sleep tonight?
Nov 06, 2003, 02:13 AM
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GGoodrum's Avatar
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I wouldn't let Brian do anything but a 7-1/2 minute test yesterday! He managed to get them to me this morning before I had a chance to let the dogs out! I made some quick measurements and threw it on the charger. While it was charging, I made the mount. Anyway, this was the very first full charge and discharge.

Brian is also sending me two 5s1p packs and one more that is 7s1p. I'm planning to use these on my Eolo. In addition to using the two 5s1p packs together in a 5s2p configuration for the Eolo, I can put them in series to make a 10s1p pack for the Logo.

What kind of voltage are you planning to use on the Predator? Actually, I guess I know that answer since you are going to use my four 3s3p packs this weeken (duh...). Have you tried playing with KC's spreadsheet to see what kind of current you'll be pulling?

-- Gary
Nov 06, 2003, 03:01 AM
Hm, my 15XL just came back from Hacker with fresh bearings and rotor, and my new Logo 10 is nearing completion...

I have a C50-16XL in the RappE now and I'll be trying some 7s and 8s set ups with that next which leaves the 15XL free for some fun. Any thoughts on running that versus the 14XL Gary? Would 8s2p be too much for the 15XL/13T?

BTW - whats the price on the assembled 7s2p pack?

Jason
Last edited by LVRCFlyer; Nov 06, 2003 at 03:34 AM.
Nov 06, 2003, 03:13 AM
Registered User
Ben74's Avatar
just wait until you get a few more flights on those things. hope the blade grips can hold on .
Nov 06, 2003, 09:26 AM
What type of batteries did you use, and where can you get them?
I don't think I have heard of the Tanic 2200 Li-Po.
It's not these is it?
CheapBatteryPacks IRATE-LP2200
If not, do you know if these Li-Po are good?

Also did you manually add the Tanic 2200 to the spreadsheet K.C. made?

Very cool video, lots of power and you can't hear any RPM drop worth talking about. Even during the hardest climbouts.

Very cool indeed.

Bjorn
Last edited by Krona; Nov 06, 2003 at 09:30 AM.
Nov 06, 2003, 10:06 AM
TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan
misskimo's Avatar
hey , congrate, and cool , some new cells on the block , maybe a 12s2p might come to mind after all , Im downloading now ,

Tony
Nov 06, 2003, 11:11 AM
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GGoodrum's Avatar
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Jason --

Actually, I think the C50-15XL will be perfect. It's a little heavier but I added a heatsink to my B50 so it's probably a wash. The kVs are the same, basically, but the B50s always seem to be a little higher than they are rated. 8s2p might be okay, but you are likely to get headspeeds around 2100 in a hover. The biggest problem is weight. You'll be back up around 39 ounces for the pack/motor combo. That's where I was with the 14XL and 7s3p TP cells and it was too much. If you are using TP packs that would drop to about 36 oz, for 8s2p, but it would only be 33-34 oz for 7s2p (at 900W, this would be pushing the TP pack to about 9.5C, which you and I both know they are capable of...) I'm at 32-33 ounces now, which is what my Aveox/5s3p setup weighed and it seems very good. I should be able to get this down to about 25-26 ounces with a 10s1p setup with either a Tango, a Pletti or a B50-19XL. It would push these cells to about 12C though, and I'm not quite ready to try that yet, at least until I get some testing done. At 11s1p, the number would be around 11C, which seems more reasonable. Even 12s1p would keep the combo weight to about 28-29 oz and it would only be pushed to 10C. For now, I'm going stay with 7s2p and then try abusing the heck out of the pack!


Bjorn --

There's been a lot of speculation about whether these Tanic cells come from the same Korean manufacturer as the CBP "Irate" cells. I really don't know. These are here and now though.

I think the cells will competively priced, which means about $18.50 per cell, but you'll have to check with Brian (PM him @ RCToys). For the spreadsheet, I used 12 mOhms and 42.5 grams.

-- Gary
Nov 06, 2003, 11:26 AM
rchover
Mckoi's Avatar
Gary GREAT WORK MAN!!!!

I'll be getting my Tanics 5s2p and 7s1p to test in the EOLO with a few new lower kv motors, once we have a proven combo we will be selling "tanics" on www.rchover.com for the EOLO and LOGO configerations if you guys want packs specially made let me know, PM me
Last edited by Mckoi; Nov 06, 2003 at 11:51 AM.
Nov 06, 2003, 01:12 PM
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GGoodrum's Avatar
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The Eolo is next up on my plate too. I've got a 7s1p pack and two 5s1p (which can be used together as 5s2p...) packs coming that I'm going to try with a variety of motors. First will be the the Aveox 27/39/1.5 I have in there now. It has a kV of 2236 and I was using a 15T pinion with the 5s2pTP 2100 setup, but I'm probably going to drop down to a 14T with the Tanic pack, at least initially.

Next, with the 7s1p pack, I want to try an Aveox 27/39/2, with a kV of 1677, and a Lehner 1530-17, which has a kV of 1681. Both of these series, the 27/39/xx and the Lehner 1530-xx, have 400/480 size cans but they are longer than a 480 (a 495 perhaps??) and both are in the 160 gm range, which is very light.

-- Gary
Nov 06, 2003, 01:28 PM
All night I couldnt help but ponder the possibilites...

I knew high voltage was the way to go, but watching your vid makes it all seem that much more realistic! The performance isnt night and day over the lower voltage set ups we use now, but it is definitely better than anything Ive ever seen and that is enough to make me wonder Best of all, high voltage means less amps which should mean far less heat for the motor and ESC, plus more consistent headspeed for the majority of the flight (As your flight has shown!).

So with my B50-15XL back from Hacker, armed with the 48-3P ESC (8-30 cells) Im think Im going to try and take the same route! I ran some numbers on the 2p packs and had a quick conversation with Charlie @ TP about performance, etc, etc.

I did some quick calculations using weights and watt hours:

Tanic 7s2p - 594 grams
Thunder Power 8s2p - 563 grams

Overall, the watt hours for both packs is the same. The slightly milder KV of the B50-15XL (KV about 1050) vs the 14XL should make for a sweet set up using 8s vs 7s. Hopefully this means even more power and even cooler temps! If I can get any motor to give me 3D performance @ less than 120 degrees, it will be something Ive never seen in 4 years of brushless heli flying....very exciting to see!

Going with even higher voltages should mean even less weight and even cooler temps! Ive got a few of those Kontronik 45-08s I could also try later next week with the higher voltage packs...12s1p would be a sweet combo since we'd only have the weight of 12 cells!

With the 7s2p or 8s2p packs we really dont save any weight over the 4s4p or 5s3p packs run now, but the added performance and cooler temps speak for themselves. The downside is that we have to run slightly heavier motors (XL vs L type cans). But again, getting down to 1p set ups with 10-12 cells will definitely be the next best step!

Charlie is going to build me a TP 8s2p 4000 pack to try this weekend and the results should be very exciting! Id like to also try one of those Tanic packs - anyone know what the price is or if theyre available? I dont think itll be much cheaper than the TP 4000 pack, but it would make for a nice comparison! I dont really like the idea of building a tray to fit the Tanic pack - thats what is so nice about the TPs since theyll slide right into the frames.

Im very interested to hear more on the long term reports of flying these new packs. The TPs have been very well proven over the past year so itll be good to see how well these newer cells stay balanced and hold up to long term abuse.

I dont think the masses will follow suit for high voltage set ups at first though. A lot of guys are so used to flying 12-14 cells in the Logo 10s that they already have the motors and ESCs suited for those combos. The trend would say guys will stick with 4s4p or 5s3p packs for a while, but its very exciting to see just what can be done with lower KV motors and higher voltages. This was something never really possible with NiCad or NiMh cells, and is only possible with LiPos!

I'll let everyone know more when I have a chance to fly the TP 8s2p 4000 pack this Saturday. This pack will be built the same as the current TP 4s4p pack so itll fit perfectly!

Jason
Nov 06, 2003, 01:29 PM
TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan
misskimo's Avatar
hey , Gary , I would swear to the 15-15 size lenher motor to fly the pants off the eolo , if you want a kv like that heavy 15-30-17 1681 , go for the 15-15-34 , its the same KV like I said before , I flew the 15-15-12 in that heavy beast , the voyager E , 8 cells and it flew GREAT , you are looking for weight loss , try that ,

Tony
Nov 06, 2003, 01:39 PM
TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan
misskimo's Avatar
hey , Jason , good to here that Charlie will build 2p packs , the titanics are 18.75 per cell and built to what you would like , like a 7s2p pack will be . $262.50 , or a 10s4p would be 750 bucks .


Tony
Nov 06, 2003, 01:42 PM
TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan
misskimo's Avatar
hey , I little bit ago I called up Brain and tried to buy some cells , but he wouldnt sell me any , not till futher testing , huh? told me to wait till monday , they will try a 11s2p in the joker this weekend
Nov 06, 2003, 02:01 PM
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GGoodrum's Avatar
Thread OP
Thanks Tony, I'll look into that. Aveox has some smaller ones as well that I might try first because they are about half the price of the Lehners. The problem with the smaller ones is the the motor resistance is higher, so they don't perform as well. The trick is finding the right balance between size, weight and power. That's what I've found KC's spreadsheet so useful for, helping that out. So far, it's been pretty much on the money.

Jason, I see now that you did say B50, not C50. You are right, that will make a perfect setup for an 8s2p TP setup. It'll weigh just about exactly what my setup does, and should be even "torquier".

While I agree the weights for a 8s2p or 7s2p packs aren't hugely different than 4s4p or 5s3p, there is a bigger benefit than just lower temps. Even with the small sized "cans", you get a LOT more torque out of them at the higher voltages.

I think a Tango 45-08 might be too hot for 12s1p, unless you could get it with a 1/8" shaft so you could use one of the 11 or 12T pinions. The Tango 45-06 looks pretty good, however. Either way, the combined motor/pack number drops to about 27 ounces!

-- Gary
Last edited by GGoodrum; Nov 06, 2003 at 02:07 PM.


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