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May 23, 2012, 12:25 AM
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The Paoli Wing ... what do you think?


Hello all,

While I am waiting for Hobby King to deliver my new recievers I followed up on a wing that I read about here ...http://scherrer.pagesperso-orange.fr...sh/paolie.html The Paoli wing, so obviously this is a neat looking wing but uses a flat bottomed wing profile and afterwards the elevons are flipped to get the wing twist. Anyone ever try this wing? It looks good and apparently it flies. Since I am stuck on my Kling wing untill the new recievers are here I figured a bit of research is never a bad thing. Btw. the plans are in DXF. format only which meant I had to load a reader to get an idea of what this thing really looks like. A no cost reader can be had from Bentley (requires an account but this is no cost) http://www.bentley.com/de-DE/ for those who do not have a reader. Great program we use it at work so no worries about spam or other evil side effects.

So what does the community think about this? I have never built a pure glider but since I have a 4 channel Rx (amongst others) on order from Hobby King I thought this wing might make a neat diversion into this arena of flight (Kent ought to be all ears now ). The simple build style should make it a quick thing to build.

Jens
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May 23, 2012, 01:00 AM
You know nothing....
Stuart A's Avatar
Jens,I would say go for it.Over on your Kling thread Quick61 dismissed the concept,but didn't say why,but I'm sure the pros and cons will be along shortly.
If you haven't tried a pure glider before you are in for a treat.Keeping one in the air is a very satisfying experience.
Regards Stuart
May 23, 2012, 01:13 AM
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Hi Stuart,

Well I have never built a pure glider so it would be a first for me. I am fairly decent at keeping gliders aloft (about 1 hour is my personal best) but I always built them with the electric updraft since my ability to keep them aloft is far better than my ability to land. Weird how that works but landing is a white knuckle affair for me and often I have to try once or twice before the landing looks good.
I can imagine a variety of reasons why the Paoli might fly well and ofcourse equally a variety why it might not. The designer got his to work (so did at least a few others). There are no build threads I can find so I have no idea if the thing is just a dud that got web-space or if it is a really a decent design with possibilities that was never discovered.
Since there are quite a few people here who really know their stuff it is always good to ask since my knowledge of aeronautics is limited to understanding that with enough power you can get a brick to fly ...
The simple build really appeals, no funky jigs huge amounts of material for the same, all you really need is a flat board ... I like that!!

Jens
May 23, 2012, 03:10 AM
Just call me crash for short
Quick61's Avatar
Well Stuart, "dismissed" might be a bit harsh. But you are correct, I do feel there are better ways to build that planform.

Jens,

Now, given that, if one was to want to build a Paoli Wing, I'd say go for it! If you would want to improve on that basic design, take a look at the videos here - http://vimeo.com/user2017315/videos - under the title "Euroclydon" (7 videos on the wing in all between the 2 pages) What he said he did was to maintain the eppler 207 all the way and add a wider trailing edge that slightly reflexed the airfoil the entire length of the wing, making it a bit more stable in pitch.

From what I am seeing / thinking... and please, if someone knows different, correct me... swapping the elevons gives the wing a sort of aerodynamic twist while allowing one to build flat. I just don't see that it adds enough twist to keep it from being rather pitch twitchy, if that makes sense. Then again, having not built one yet, this is all just theory on my part and it could all work out just fine for you.

Another thing that I have read from others that have built this type of wing is that all have found adding turbulators (see videos mentioned above - #3 at about 1:05) gives an improvement in handling.

Sense the Paoli Wing has been one of a few that has been on my mind for a while now, I'll be watching....

Mark
May 23, 2012, 05:30 AM
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Hello Mark,

To me from what I understand, it is so that the flipped portion (elevons) does add aerodynamic twist. I am sure there are better ways to do it as you said but it this system or design if you will is very easy to build (short of epp which I am not so fond of). Those are some interesting videos, I will have to examine them closely tonight as I am at work. Thank you for the link , greatly appreciate that.
The idea of adding a touch of reflex (easily done really) for stability might be a good idea, since the wing is easy as far as building it goes, it might be worth a try.
Turbulators however ... I cover the majority of my models with paper which has an inherent rough service. Now somewhere I recall reading that this feature (or flaw depending on how you see things) actually makes smaller models such as mine more flyable. Has something to do with those dreaded Reynolds numbers but I might have it all wrong (would not be the first time LOL ). However adding turbulators to something in the 1 meter class ( I rarely build anything bigger) would be difficult to do. Easier way I have found is that the wing needs to be covered top first then the bottom ... here is why. A turbulator is just a strip of zig zag material or some other type of method to trip up the airflow over the top of the wing.
When I cover smaller models it is easiest to add this feature by simply covering the top of the wing first. The bottom is covered and the material (largely paper in my case) is wrapped up and over the top of the leading edge. This in effect creates a very thin "bump" up there which acts as the turbulator. Was not my idea actually, I read it somewhere else but it seems sound to me and my models do fly ... .

Jens
May 23, 2012, 09:15 AM
Everything's A Composite
Knoll53's Avatar
If you have a self imposed limit of 1m span, maybe you could build a DLG type flying wing. DLGs require a very light and strong building method, which you may enjoy.

Last weekend at the flying site, one of the better pilots spun around and launched his conventional DLG to maybe 100' altitude, THEN over the next 5 minutes proceeded to work lift until it was a little dot in the sky. No motor, no high start, no bungee. Just one launch. Also, they are very easy to land.

A planform like the Paoli might be a good starting point, but for DLG a full Nurflügel analysis (Frank Ranis program) would be warranted.

Kent
May 23, 2012, 10:59 AM
Just call me crash for short
Quick61's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoll53
If you have a self imposed limit of 1m span, maybe you could build a DLG type flying wing. DLGs require a very light and strong building method, which you may enjoy.

Last weekend at the flying site, one of the better pilots spun around and launched his conventional DLG to maybe 100' altitude, THEN over the next 5 minutes proceeded to work lift until it was a little dot in the sky. No motor, no high start, no bungee. Just one launch. Also, they are very easy to land.

A planform like the Paoli might be a good starting point, but for DLG a full Nurflügel analysis (Frank Ranis program) would be warranted.

Kent
Hey Kent, this might be up your alley if you haven't seen it yet. - https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1478436

Jens, I think the best part of of the Paoli Wing is the 'easy to build' part. I get what your saying about the covering. Should of thought of that my own self. One could even go so far as to cut that bottom covering edge with pinking shears.

Mark
Last edited by Quick61; May 23, 2012 at 11:08 AM.
May 23, 2012, 12:29 PM
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Knoll53's Avatar
Thanks for the link Mark. Looks like a well designed and built Alula.

Kent
May 23, 2012, 12:47 PM
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BMatthews's Avatar
When I first saw the Paoli wing idea I thought the method was brilliant. But on further thinking about it I realized that the top line of the elevons are curved and the bottoms were straight due to the airfoil shape and how the elevons are angled and cut away.

When flipped over you end up trying to match the curved side to the straight side and vice versa. So something has to give or the hinge line will be incredably lumpy due to mis matching. Once I figured this out I wasn't so taken with the idea any longer.

On the other hand if the ribs and trailing edges in that area were left a little "fat" along the hinge line and things were then blended with some sanding following the flip'n hinge operation then maybe it would all be fine as the transitions could be blended easily. It would also mean not shaping the trailing edge fully around the hinge line until after the flip'n'hinge step.

As for not having enough washout that is something easily handled by warping in a little additional washout while shrinking the covering.
May 23, 2012, 02:56 PM
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Hello again,

Kent, this wing is not really a good candidate for a DLG, I honestly think a DLG needs a solid core wing, plus I must admit that I sadly have a very bad right shoulder and throwing stuff (even light stuff causes me enormous amounts pain because my shoulder is always near the point where it tries to dislocate). I tried a left handed throw but largely I planted the DLG in the weeds not in the sky. So bummer for me but then again I have you as a HUGE source of bungee info

Mark, I never thought to use pinking shears, will have to stop by my mothers and see of she has a pair she can do without. That would look really cool if the upper and lower surfaces use two different colors. Nice idea thanks !!

BMatthews, I saw that one detail as well as to how the hinge line might be made up after it is built flat. But I was thinking to do what you had suggested. Since the designer got his to fly ... I am hopeful if I go this route I might have luck as well.

Jens
May 23, 2012, 07:36 PM
Everything's A Composite
Knoll53's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinaberfein
Hello again,

Kent, this wing is not really a good candidate for a DLG, I honestly think a DLG needs a solid core wing, plus I must admit that I sadly have a very bad right shoulder and throwing stuff (even light stuff causes me enormous amounts pain because my shoulder is always near the point where it tries to dislocate). I tried a left handed throw but largely I planted the DLG in the weeds not in the sky. So bummer for me but then again I have you as a HUGE source of bungee info
Oh I know that the Paoli is not a good candidate for DLG. I'm trying to nudge you away from the Paoli. I too have shoulder trouble ( from launching RC, no less ) but the Side Arm Discuss motion is different than an overhead motion. Much easier on the shoulder. There may be hope for you yet with DLG.

Kent
May 24, 2012, 01:13 AM
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Hi Kent,

Well I tried a DLG once, gave it away so I would have to get a new one in which case though a wing is likely not the right plane but rather a true DLG glider as these I know will work and not fall apart.

In thinking about the Paoli something came to mind and after looking it might actually be that the designer was far better than I had thought. The idea that the elevons would have an issue with the hinge line ... take a look at the pics on the web-site. It seems to me that the man figured that as well as the elevons line up very well. The cut line produces as near as I can tell a straight line across the top of the wing. Makes sense too, he is cutting across several ribs at an angle, just because the ribs have a curve does not mean the cut line cannot be straight. It just means he spent a bit of time thinking in 3D mode. Not a bad trick if you ask me. I printed the plans to what is about 1 Meter and will do a bit of experimenting.

Now for something different see next post.

Jens
May 24, 2012, 01:20 AM
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And now for something different but old ...

In thinking about the controls on a pure wing, we all know about adverse yaw and so. So why do we do this then so that both elevons move when the time comes to roll the thing into a controlled semblence of flight around a curve. Could I simply build a model that only uses only one side to initiate roll?? After all why induce the unwanted drag on the wrong side of the model? Would the model not roll if I only used one elevon on the inside of the tùrn?. And then the other elevon on the other side if I want to turn in that direction?

Just a question or thought provoker so if I am wrong here no worries I am just curious why we always do things the way we do them.

Jens
May 24, 2012, 03:05 AM
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Stuart A's Avatar
I don't know the tech answer to this one Jens,but it's got to be something to do with turning around the centre of the wing?
Stuart
May 24, 2012, 06:12 AM
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I am sure it does Stuart, I know little about this sort of thing so I am just throwing out there to see what people say.

Jens


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