"Britkit" Build Off April 2012 - 31/12/2012 - Page 19 - RC Groups
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Nov 19, 2012, 03:18 PM
Registered User
Britplan ... whatever I might look at would have to have a solid competitive use in some NFFS/SAM/speciality event here and, frankly, at this moment I can't think of anything that fits my requirements and also attracts me. I have sport models which are never flown as I'm too busy with other things on those flying occasions - in fact, some have never been flown - so such cannot be a consideration. Actually sport models quickly bore me, making short predictable flights

As for your other suggestion .. nah ... I'd rather fly than drive -
Last edited by Applehoney; Nov 19, 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Nov 19, 2012, 04:26 PM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Crikey Jim, you are starting to sound like J. O'D
Nov 19, 2012, 07:07 PM
Registered User
OMG, George ... I hope not!

I love to put models way up high and to watch them fly for several minutes... even if I do get antsy if the DT seems a little delayed I also think a model should always be flown to the limit of its trim and performance ability .. anything less is undervaluing its potential and purpose. I have often been accused of never being satisfied and forever 'tweaking' to gain an extra couple of seconds or so consistently.

I love competition, for the opportunity to match my models against those of others - the vagaries of thermals or downdrafts make it even more interesting for the eventual outcome of any flight cannot be forseen. But I fly competition for the joy of it, not to win at all costs - not my mindset. If I drop a flight badly I will still complete the required number even though way out of the running. I fly in good company, if I win an event that's a bonus, if I don't win or place I really don't care ... I've had a great day with my peers.

I just love F/F, with all its uncertainties and challenges. No two flights are ever quite the same, sometimes wildly different and there lays much of its appeal. For me, anyway. Competition is the icing on the cake.

The recently-late Bob Hatschek was once asked why he did not fly radio control. He replied that FF models were much more advanced in that they flew automatically .......

I'm outa here before the incoming is incoming ......
Last edited by Applehoney; Nov 19, 2012 at 07:13 PM.
Nov 20, 2012, 06:51 PM
Registered User
Well .. .that killed that chat .... sigh ....
Nov 21, 2012, 02:43 AM
So I'M meant to be in control?
Colonel Blink's Avatar
Not at all, Jim.... I just didn't really feel that I have the skills or the experience to really comment - so here it is:

Your description of your attitude to competition is, for me, the essence of what I believe a good, enjoyable competition should be. A Grand Day Out, revolving round a bit of model flying. By all means try your utmost, take pride in using every ounce of judgement and skill at your disposal, and learn from others around you. However, if a mistake is made or an act of God goes against you, don't get ar$ey and girly sulky about it - I detest the modern attitude that 'coming second means you're the first loser'. I believe that a competition is very much made by the middle runners. If a race only consisted of those who believed they would win, there'd only be three or four starters. I have never competed in nor attended a compo, and the above is one of the reasons. Anyway, anything more than a mass Tomboy Launch is probably beyond my competitive urge anyway

Re FF, I'll admit its not for me, but I can remember that when I was building the Gypsy in the early 90s, I was commuting from Gillingham into London every day. Quite by chance, on the train one day I started chatting to a chap by the name of Bob Hodgkinson, who used to fly at Chobham Common. He made the point that the appeal of FF to him was that once you let go of that model, the way it performs in any condition is entirely dependent upon what you as the builder has built into it - there are no masking deficiencies in construction through control inputs! 'Accurate building spawns consistent flights' or something of that ilk. He also said that to see an Open power model corkscrewing into the sky almost vertically and then instantly dropping into a smooth well trimmed glide when the motor cut was quite something.

'Course in those days you had willing fetchermites!!!!
Nov 21, 2012, 07:58 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Originally Posted by Applehoney
Well .. .that killed that chat .... sigh ....
No Jim, didn't kill it, you know I never shut up! I was just considering carefully what I wanted to say.

I share completely your approach to contest flying. My fifteen years of contest thermal soaring exemplified my personal approach - when I'm flying I am trying REALLY hard, but if I get beaten well, I can still have fun. One of the great attractions of percentage slot thermal soaring is that you can have a nightmare in the first two rounds but then deliver a mighty thrashing to everyone in your third slot. The BARCS Northern League in the seventies and eighties was huge fun - very, very competitive with average events attracting 60 to 80 entries, but still a really friendly and sporting environment. No one could succeed without the help of others - towing, spotting, timekeeping, so you were busy every slot, often doing your utmost to help someone beat your own score. The banter was pretty good too - fairly merciless mind you, you had to be able to take it as well as dish it out!

Winning, when that occasionally happened, was a bonus, yes, enjoyable, but most enjoyable because of the really good pilots your had managed to beat. Winning the Open at Radioglide in 1986 was most memorable to me not for the trophy, or the fact of winning, but because in the fly off I flew two of the best thermal flights of my life and for the fact that that fly off included one ex World Champion, one current and three former National Champions plus a couple of League winners. That made it really worth winning.

I certainly don't want to get into a debate about which class of model is "best" or requires most skill, I don't think you can say, they all require different skills. What I will just say is that I can assure you that a badly built or badly trimmed R/C thermal soarer won't win anything. I used to spend many hours on the club field refining the trim and handling of my models, and this approach still sticks now that I fly R/C sport and vintage models - I won't tolerate a poor handling or badly trimmed model and, like you, will fiddle endlessly to get it right, even to the extent of quite serious structural changes.

So I don't think there is very much difference between us - except maybe that I have flown and enjoyed (some with greater competence than others!) every class of model except microfilm and helicopters over the years so that I have a healthy respect for the effort and skill that goes into a well built and well flown model of any class, whether intended for sport or contest use, something which maybe doesn't come naturally if you only ever fly one type. I get just as big a kick from the perfect flight of one of my vintage R/C models, or drifting my indoor SE5A around the garden on a calm summer evening, or flying my Sopwith Triplane or Spitfire in as scalish a manner as possible as I used to do from winding one of my Hi-Phases up a big thermal until it was a dot or seeing the perfectly grooved flight pattern of a 14 ounce Cox .15 Dixielander or doing my imperfect version of the stunt schedule with my Nobler. If it is a model aeroplane and it flies, I enjoy it! AND as a bonus, I also enjoy building just as much as flying these days.
Nov 21, 2012, 01:36 PM
Registered User
Colonel - Bob Hodgkinson is not a name I recognise though I flew a lot at Chobham long before the motorway spoiled the site. If anything could spoil Chobham, that is ... back in the days when the hill had a clump of trees fitted with 12" nails to enable climbing ... adders sunning on bare patches ... and the track to/from the hill divided around a half buried Mills bomb left over from past army exercises. Everyone knew it was there so nobody bothered about it !

These aside - his comments regarding F/F were 100% accurate and yes ... flying a well trimmed power mode is a stirring experience. I've never had fetchermites ... still hoof it out into the dfistance.

George - well said in many respects. The camaraderie in BARCS is the essence of what competition should always entail, no matter the dscipline or class. On a far, far lesser scale I once had a ball flying power against another person using same type of engine - but he lost a head bolt. We kept posting alternate max's .. I'd fly, pass him a bolt .. he'd fly .. pass it back .. and so on. i don't recall now which of us won but we happily shook hands thereafter!

As you say, a stable structure well tweaked is the basis of good flight and despite my kidding about R/C I respect all who recognise same in any discipline. Characteristics that I fear that the majority of present day ARF/RTF flyers, sadly, may never recognise.

Incidentally, despite previous comments I am musing gently over a Britplan - undecided as yet but I have Tileprinted it off. A very obscure unattractive rubber model from the 40's... good wing and moments, decent prop diameter ... just MIGHT be a "sleeper" Mind you, I thought that of another 40's model some years ago; I was wrong.
Last edited by Applehoney; Nov 24, 2012 at 01:08 PM.
Nov 24, 2012, 11:17 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Mixer421 has finished his novel electric conversion of the KK Dolphin glider, best of luck with the test flights. That makes 17 completed models in the build off, Sky Jiver's Competitor Plus, Warren B's mighty Junior 112 are well advanced, kkphantom has been re-energised to get back on his Veron Tipsy Nipper after having been diverted by building a Valkyrie no less and I have finally managed to get a bit done on the Tarquin, so I still have hopes of 20 completed entries by December 31st, which will be a good result. I still hope one or two of the stalled projects might prove my fears for them groundless too.
Nov 28, 2012, 04:20 PM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
I've just added another completed entry, a Veron Truflite Tiger Moth rubber model by VMC. OK, so it has a bit of elliptical dihedral due to over enthusiastic doping but, bear in mind this is his VERY FIRST attempt at building a flying model - and he got it to fly. Well done, a pretty impressive attempt from scratch.
Nov 28, 2012, 05:15 PM
Registered User
Sky Jiver's Avatar


Nice debate boys, I agree with the three of you. Would a Brian Eggleston designed "Creep" be a suitable candidate Apple? but where would you get an Oliver Tiger from ?
Nov 28, 2012, 06:36 PM
Registered User
"Creep" is a very useful model to have. I have 'em in .020, .049 and .29 sizes and sometime have to replace the .15 version that died after nearly 30 years of use (!)

An Oliver's not necessary. Any good 2.5cc will do the trick; I first used a KB .15 Greenhead and then a OS Max ll .15 in my old one and it was very successful. I've seen a version flown wth a TD.09 which was impressive, too.

If you build I recommend putting a smidgeon of incidence under the wing. As drawn - zero-zero - it's a very fast almost straight climb but transition is critical and should it stall at cutoff then it can come back down again just as fast. Saw a lot do that back in the day. Some incidence gives a steep fast safe spiral and impeccable transition into the glide.

A pity that the geodetic version wasn't the one published but ... so be it
Nov 29, 2012, 05:59 PM
Registered User
Sky Jiver's Avatar
Geodetic Creep. Wow Apple you certainly know your Creeps. The Geodetic with Brian in the 1960 snap came a few years after the Aeromodeller plan was published which was about 1954/55. I agree any good 2.5cc would do the trick but and Oliver would be nice as on the original. Since you have plenty of Creeps and if you wanted to go a bit further back in time then George Fuller's "Stomper" might be worthy of consideration. here endeth the suggestions. PS Have a look at my Competitor thread for two sources of Tissue Paste. KBO.
Nov 29, 2012, 06:51 PM
Registered User
Actually I had my own geodetic version of the Creep around 1960. Same outlines, airfoils of the 'standard' one but with geodetics, a slim profile fuselage, regular underfin to replace the bifurcated one and with a Webra Mach 1 in the sharp end. To best of memory it weighed just under 12 ounces and was very satisfying to fly. Met its end when I switched to a Cox Olympic and folded the wings. Photo .. maybe Rufforth? Model on ground an early 'Applehoney'

Brian Egg lives about 25 miles, or so, away from here - now deep into airfoil design.

Stomper .. have one here that hasn't been flown for quite a few years, in fact since I last ran a Stomper Postal event. Nice steady airplane that doesn't like being launched with enthusiasm - then tends to go all over the sky. Just let it go and it'll make its own way up in a nice loose safe spiral.
Last edited by Applehoney; Nov 29, 2012 at 07:01 PM.
Nov 30, 2012, 04:05 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Colibriguitars from Mexico is making rapid progress with his build of my Frog Tom Tit x2 design and given the speed he builds at I confidently expect he will have it finished by the close of the build off. Check out this talented builder's work at https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1773757
Nov 30, 2012, 05:41 AM
Registered User
Froglube's Avatar

Hi all!

Been A bit busy with the house having its roof off and all but going to try and get the wings and the tail of the Veronite No. 2 finished. The fuse' is acually finished, even covered (don't know why I did that as at that point I hadn't even cut out any ribs) but some how i hit a wall and let other things side track me!

More when I have something to show for it!



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