View Poll Results: Is John Kim guilty of fraud with the enya engine?
YES 101 91.82%
no 9 8.18%
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Mar 20, 2012, 04:30 PM
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Discussion

John Kim commits fraud, proof inside.


John Kim stole a picture off a UK website of a new Enya engine and then used it to represent a well used engine he was attempting to sell here on RCG.

Pictures of the Enya engine from the UK website.

Picture of John Kim's ad selling an Enya engine.

Link to Enya engine that seller received, quite obvious that the Enya engine received was not the Enya engine in the photo in the ad. That is fraud.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1608189


John Kim please explain how a picture of an New Enya engine from a UK website found it's way inside your ad for a used engine?
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Mar 20, 2012, 05:04 PM
D W
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Seems like fraud, plain and simple.
I wonder if this is the pic he sends out when buyers ask on his latest ad:


MAGNUM PRO 46, $50 plus $10 shipping.

MAGNUM XL 46, $50 plus $10 shipping

Enya 90-4C 4 cycle, $100 plus $15 shipping charge.

Shipping charge is not refundable if returned. Engines were never used but are sold as is to avoid any complaints. Priced to sell. My loss is your bargain.

Picture shown on request.

Contact via PM

=========
Special Note on engines

Engines were never used but they were in storage for 10 years and I brought them out for sale.

During long storage, engines froze and some engine shows stains from age. They were immersed in alcohol to unfreeze. They are oiled and parts are moving freely now.

Should I call them new or 10 year old? You be the judge.

They are sold as is.
Mar 20, 2012, 06:28 PM
Trader Rating: 30
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It simply amazes me that people here get infractions within minutes (or hours) of posting something against the rules. But, when it comes to banning someone who is using this site to break the law, they just don't seem to care. I know I'm pretty new here, and nobody would care, but between this situation and seeing the way the people that run this site throw out infractions at people, I don't know how much longer I will stay as an active member. I was given infractions for speaking my mind to another person that was ripping off people here not too long ago, and I find that insulting. It seems as though the people that run this site are so preoccupied with nitpicking each post and searching for things that "might" be offensive, that they don't have time to deal with the real problems. I'm not saying that's the case...I'm just saying that it's how it seems to me. Just take a look at the site complaints and infraction appeal forums. I'm a member of at least 20 different forums and I have NEVER seen anything like it before in my life.
Mar 20, 2012, 06:41 PM
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
I've sent my message to RCG and if nothing happens I'll be another member that will stick to RCU and FG.

What funny is RCG asked me to edit my posts or I get points except John Kim deleted my posts so even if I wanted to edit them I couldn't. RCG doesn't even get that. Boot me, saves me from having to quit this site that openly allows fraud to occur on their site.

RCG you want me to edit this post, I will when you do some banning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 20, 2012, 07:13 PM
Trader Rating: 117
Glued to the CA bottle
Ah Oh, this don't look good
Mar 20, 2012, 07:15 PM
Trader Rating: 398
Dragons, WindMills, all Same
jcstalls's Avatar
If you read and fully accept the RCG rules and such, then there is no amaze.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454311

RCGroups is happy to provide a place where sellers and buyers can meet.

The service is provided free of charge. Consequently, RCGroups cannot assume any responsibility for the transactions that occur here.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/wlist.php

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/termsofservice.php

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/faq.php

And so on.
Mar 20, 2012, 07:23 PM
Trader Rating: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcstalls
If you read and fully accept the RCG rules and such, then there is no amaze.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454311

RCGroups is happy to provide a place where sellers and buyers can meet.

The service is provided free of charge. Consequently, RCGroups cannot assume any responsibility for the transactions that occur here.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/wlist.php

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/termsofservice.php

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/faq.php

And so on.
Rules and disclaimers do not protect people from the law. Ask any lawyer, and they will agree with what I'm telling you. We have horses on my property and I was going to put up a sign in my barn that I see in almost every barn in MA that states that the Equine sports is dangerous, and that we are not responsible for any equine related injuries on our property. A lawyer told me flat out that he's seen people who had these signs get sued for a kid falling off a horse and they still had to pay out. I also knew a guy that ran a paintball field and his lawyer told him that the sign-off sheets were more to make people think they can't sue you for liability. They often don't hold up in court.
Mar 20, 2012, 07:45 PM
Trader Rating: 30
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BTW, I doubt that anyone would sue the site owners over a bogus engine sale. But, that shouldn't matter...they should ban anyone permanently when they are caught committing fraud through the site. It's a matter of principle, and it shows that that care about their members. I personally don't enjoy going after an 82 year old man like this. For all I know he was an honorable man for most of his life. But, what he's doing here now is inexcusable, and the site owners should do the right thing and protect the rest of the members.
Mar 21, 2012, 03:20 AM
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JimNM's Avatar
...I personally don't enjoy going after an 82 year old man like this....

Then stop. end of drama...
Mar 21, 2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM
...I personally don't enjoy going after an 82 year old man like this....

Then stop. end of drama...
You think that we should let him continue with what he's doing because he's elderly?
Mar 21, 2012, 06:05 AM
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WAA-08 THANK FRANK!
JimNM's Avatar
No. You made your point. enough already.
Mar 21, 2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM
No. You made your point. enough already.
Who are you to tell me what to discuss with other people? I dint like seing people being taken advantage of and I prefer to make those people known. And, for the record, I didn't start this thread...I just commented in it.
Mar 21, 2012, 08:11 AM
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM

Then stop. end of drama...
Sure would be nice if it was that easy. Would also be nice if John Kim would answer my question and stop selling used engines as new, never run.
Mar 21, 2012, 08:36 AM
Trader Rating: 253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM
...I personally don't enjoy going after an 82 year old man like this....

Then stop. end of drama...
I don't usually comment on these types of posts, but I have followed several threads that have dealt with Mr. Kim and his engines over the last several weeks. In this case, unlike a lot of other cases here on RC Groups, there is clear, concise, and consistent evidence of fraud. A picture is worth 1000 words and the ones provided here that clearly prove an RC Group seller has purposely used photos that were not his to represent an item that he was selling "as his" is at the least....misrepresenting the truth.

This has nothing do to with age. This has everything to do with right and wrong.

Hank
Mar 21, 2012, 09:00 AM
Trader Rating: 59
WAA-08 THANK FRANK!
JimNM's Avatar
Allow me to clear up my position...

Attack the post/actions of suspect traders.

Do not attack the member ...stay on the right side of the rules.

Do not bash the site for not getting involved in trade dispuwtes..they accept no responsibility for the member to member trades.

If you are justified to bash a member action, let the hammer fall.
Mar 21, 2012, 09:15 AM
Trader Rating: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM
Allow me to clear up my position...

Attack the post/actions of suspect traders.

Do not attack the member ...stay on the right side of the rules.
Pointing out what a person does is not attacking a member. How, exactly, would you prefer us to warn others of a person committing fraud without naming the person behind it?

Quote:
Do not bash the site for not getting involved in trade dispuwtes..they accept no responsibility for the member to member trades.
The site shouldn't get involved in member trades...But, they SHOULD get involved when a person is using the system to break the law. I really don't understand why this detail is so hard for some people to understand. If a person gets upset that they had to pay $10 for shipping, but the shipping label said $5.00, then RCG shouldn't get involved...they agreed on a price when they purchased it. If a member is purposely misrepresenting items for sale, providing false photos of the equipment, and deleting posts in his thread that people put up with the actual photos of the part he's selling, then that shows that he is committing fraud willfully. The site absolutely needs to get involved with situations like this.

The site "rules" are flawed. The fact that a person can be banned for calling a person a jerk 10 times over the course of a year, but a person like John can continue to commit fraud because "the site assumes no responsibility for the classified section transactions" is deeply disturbing.
Mar 21, 2012, 09:48 AM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNM
Allow me to clear up my position...

Attack the post/actions of suspect traders.

Do not attack the member ...stay on the right side of the rules.

Do not bash the site for not getting involved in trade dispuwtes..they accept no responsibility for the member to member trades.

If you are justified to bash a member action, let the hammer fall.
Jim, we are totally justified in bashing the member.

The Enya 90 that started this whole discussion was sold to me and to another member before me. He also had to file a Paypal claim since the engine was so grossly misrepresented. The ONLY reason I took it as far as I did was that he insisted that he was correct in his description and that I could return it, but that I'd have to eat the shipping. At that point, it wasn't the money, it was the sheer principle of the situation. You can see what we're dealing with in my communications with him in my posting:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=49


Below is a direct quote from another member that bought the Enya...

"The Enya 90 four stroke he sold me was advertised as NIB and was not new. I did receive a full refund from paypal including the original shipping. It is beyond me why John continues to exhibit the behavior he does. To imply the engine is new or changed because of being stored is ridiculous."
Mar 21, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Dennis Everett's Avatar
Is it possible that he is not of right mind ? Maybe your dealing with a "special" person ?
Mar 21, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Now he's deleting all warnings from his for sale threads, writing "Contact Via PM" as the last post, and locking the threads.
Mar 21, 2012, 11:21 AM
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcnally
Now he's deleting all warnings from his for sale threads, writing "Contact Via PM" as the last post, and locking the threads.
For someone with nothing to hide it sure spells it out in capital letters.
Mar 21, 2012, 01:24 PM
D W
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Without resorting to a personal attack I must say it is obvious that fraud has been committed.
Perhaps most troubling is the fact that Mr Kim is an active member of RCGroups with more than 5000 posts. One would think that an enthusiast like that would embrace fellow modelers and be encouraging and helpful.
When I see sales ads from someone with zero posts and a few trader points I am wary that their just out to make a buck. That's fine but i'm extra careful if I'm interested in the sale. I wouldn't have these same concerns with an active RCG member.
Mar 22, 2012, 08:37 AM
Trader Rating: 100
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johnbyrne's Avatar
I've been a member here for a long time and have been involved in some pretty heated discussions yet I have never received a single point for anything. The point is, you can pretty much say anything about anyone if you do it correctly. If you get a point, you probably didn't follow that rule. This is simple guys. Don't bash the site for following their own rules. And oh yea, I didn't know they were part of the CIA, FBI, or local police force. Given that they are I guess they should be going after the scammers.

Just making a point of course. They are very clear with respect to what they will and won't do. What they won't do is turn someone in to the law. What they will do is ban scammers. If you don't believe me, let me know and I'll link thread after thread where this has happened. What you do is get the info together and PM them so they can do their thing. Keep in mind that they do NOT typically read these threads (the mods). They are too busy reading silly stuff that was reported when it should not have been or silly stuff that someone said because they were not following the simple rules here (see 1st paragraph).

To sum it up, stay on topic, discuss actions, and you will NEVER have an issue with RCG moderation. With respect to scammers, RCG is not the police but they will take action when you present the details to them via PMs. We have proven this time and time again.

BTW, just to make a point I'll say this. This fellow has been here for awhile and is active. I've not checked him out and won't probably but at first glance from what I've read he seems to not fit the profile of scammer so put yourself in their shoes and ask this question. Did this guy rip off the pictures from the UK site or did the UK site rip off the pictures from him? So there, I just added enough mud to the water that more investigation needs to be done. Now, this should't be hard to prove but the moderators are not going to take the time to prove it (they dont' have the time) so we have to do the work and PM that level of proof to them and then ... poof .. he is on a vacation. This is how it works guys.
Mar 22, 2012, 09:10 AM
Trader Rating: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
I've been a member here for a long time and have been involved in some pretty heated discussions yet I have never received a single point for anything. The point is, you can pretty much say anything about anyone if you do it correctly. If you get a point, you probably didn't follow that rule. This is simple guys. Don't bash the site for following their own rules. And oh yea, I didn't know they were part of the CIA, FBI, or local police force. Given that they are I guess they should be going after the scammers.

Just making a point of course. They are very clear with respect to what they will and won't do. What they won't do is turn someone in to the law. What they will do is ban scammers. If you don't believe me, let me know and I'll link thread after thread where this has happened. What you do is get the info together and PM them so they can do their thing. Keep in mind that they do NOT typically read these threads (the mods). They are too busy reading silly stuff that was reported when it should not have been or silly stuff that someone said because they were not following the simple rules here (see 1st paragraph).

To sum it up, stay on topic, discuss actions, and you will NEVER have an issue with RCG moderation. With respect to scammers, RCG is not the police but they will take action when you present the details to them via PMs. We have proven this time and time again.

BTW, just to make a point I'll say this. This fellow has been here for awhile and is active. I've not checked him out and won't probably but at first glance from what I've read he seems to not fit the profile of scammer so put yourself in their shoes and ask this question. Did this guy rip off the pictures from the UK site or did the UK site rip off the pictures from him? So there, I just added enough mud to the water that more investigation needs to be done. Now, this should't be hard to prove but the moderators are not going to take the time to prove it (they dont' have the time) so we have to do the work and PM that level of proof to them and then ... poof .. he is on a vacation. This is how it works guys.
This post isn't entirely correct. I've posted proof that he's willfully scamming in the SSC forum and nothing has been done about this yet. The UK site did not use John's picture, because the picture didn't match the engine he sold. When we posted pictures of the actual engine he sold to Hemikiller, John deleted them and locked his thread. His being a member here for many years means squat to me. He's ripping people off now, and that is all that should matter.
Mar 22, 2012, 11:47 AM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
This fellow has been here for awhile and is active. I've not checked him out and won't probably but at first glance from what I've read he seems to not fit the profile of scammer so put yourself in their shoes and ask this question.
I thought so too, 5,xxx posts and all. Boy, was I wrong.

It's time for Mr Kim's subtitle to be changed to read..

휴가를 보내고
Mar 22, 2012, 12:32 PM
Trader Rating: 110
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I C A Vacationing coming
Mar 22, 2012, 02:26 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
anyone looking for a trophy winning plane?

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1619005
Mar 22, 2012, 04:40 PM
Trader Rating: 100
Often wrong ("wife")
johnbyrne's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemikiller
I thought so too, 5,xxx posts and all. Boy, was I wrong.
Oh I'm not saying he didn't do anything wrong, just saying that his record makes the presentation of facts even more important. This is gonna be a tough one so the best thing is just what this thread is doing, inform people.

Can't help but wonder why someone with a solid track record would suddenly go bad.
Mar 22, 2012, 05:10 PM
Trader Rating: 398
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jcstalls's Avatar
Yes, it is sad John. With well established and contributing members, this is very rare.
Mar 22, 2012, 07:57 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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Shocking even.
Mar 22, 2012, 09:17 PM
Trader Rating: 35
skypup
maybe at 82 he died and someone else is now using his account?? i have been buying a lot of stuff off of this site so its good to know about this one. (butch)
Mar 23, 2012, 07:06 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
Sure would be nice if it was that easy. Would also be nice if John Kim would answer my question and stop selling used engines as new, never run.
It isn't your job to take him down.
Mar 23, 2012, 07:35 AM
Trader Rating: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
It isn't your job to take him down.
Says who? If you choose to sit by, watch people rip others off, and do nothing about it, then that's your choice. Just as it is our choice to go after these people and try to take them down.
Mar 23, 2012, 07:40 AM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
Whatever you do, don't engage that going forward. If you do, expect a hundred questions meant to annoy you, and then expect to get reported too. The ol' linear logic will get trotted out, followed by the endless question marks.

Obtuse doesn't even come close to accurately describing that.
Mar 23, 2012, 08:01 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcnally
Says who? If you choose to sit by, watch people rip others off, and do nothing about it, then that's your choice. Just as it is our choice to go after these people and try to take them down.
Says pretty much 'common sense.'

Going after others based upon what you perceive can easily become rule violations on this website. You are not the cops in this. Private transactions are between the individuals, and are governed by laws, not by the ToS of this website. The site isn't a party to the transactions.


There is a difference between pointing out flaws that you see in the posts, and labeling others as frauds or scammers. It is possibly true, but that doesn't make it right for you to take that as your task to point it out. Feedback and the legal system are the proper courses of action for those involved to take. Other than that, caveat emptor.
Mar 23, 2012, 08:02 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
Whatever you do, don't engage that going forward. If you do, expect a hundred questions meant to annoy you, and then expect to get reported too. The ol' linear logic will get trotted out, followed by the endless question marks.

Obtuse doesn't even come close to accurately describing that.
I see you are going personal as opposed to speaking of statements.
Mar 23, 2012, 08:26 AM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
I have not quoted anyone, it's general advice to anyone, about anyone.

Those that respond in the defensive, well......
Mar 23, 2012, 09:44 AM
Trader Rating: 100
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johnbyrne's Avatar
First I want to make sure everyone understands that I appreciate those who help "watch our backs" here on RCG.

With that said, I think the point that is being made is that it is true that isn't really anyone's job to find and expose scammers so there is a danger when you "go after" someone. I've been on this site for a long long time and trust me, I've seen things happen that look really bad but when the whole story comes out things turn the other way really quickly. You have to be really careful when you "expose" someone and as I've said now several times you must have all your ducks in a row and a level of proof that is very high. If you have this then the site will take action.

This thread is a perfect example of that. We have someone who is selling the motor as new which we believe isn't new. With that said, the price he is selling it for to be perfectly honest seems ok for the condition (I think anyway) and he offers a money back policy with some stipulations. I'm not saying it is a good policy but he isn't hiding it. Now, what if ... just what if the seller honestly is blind to the condition of the motor and thinks it is new but discolored. Forget how impossible that may be for just a moment. If the seller really believe right or wrong that this motor is new then he is doing NOTHING illegal. He simply can't evalute the condition right in which case the feedback system will document this. As a mod I would find it difficult to take action on this one (sorry just being honest). I know this next comment isn't going to be popular with some of you and that is fine but I don't see that anyone has proven he is a scammer. There just isn't proof for that. There seems to be proof that he can't tell a used motor from a new motor but that is an issue in and of itself. So this is just my opinion but if you push it then you cuold find that you are the one getting points and getting banned. This is the key issue and one that could turn into a double edged sword for anyone who tries to go after him.

So my question now is where is the proof that he knows the difference between a used engine and an old / new engine? Find that proof and you have him I think. Till then, I suggest you do what you are doing, keep everyone informed but don't attack him personally or call him a names like scammer. That would only get you in trouble which may actally make him look ok again ... you become the bad guy and he gets set free

In closing, don't let your emotions get the best of you when posting, think 3 times before posting anything and have hard solid facts. Good luck and thanks to everyone who are helping us stay safe.
Mar 23, 2012, 09:56 AM
Trader Rating: 561
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bruff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
First I want to make sure everyone understands that I appreciate those who help "watch our backs" here on RCG.

With that said, I think the point that is being made is that it is true that isn't really anyone's job to find and expose scammers so there is a danger when you "go after" someone. I've been on this site for a long long time and trust me, I've seen things happen that look really bad but when the whole story comes out things turn the other way really quickly. You have to be really careful when you "expose" someone and as I've said now several times you must have all your ducks in a row and a level of proof that is very high. If you have this then the site will take action.

This thread is a perfect example of that. We have someone who is selling the motor as new which we believe isn't new. With that said, the price he is selling it for to be perfectly honest seems ok for the condition (I think anyway) and he offers a money back policy with some stipulations. I'm not saying it is a good policy but he isn't hiding it. Now, what if ... just what if the seller honestly is blind to the condition of the motor and thinks it is new but discolored. Forget how impossible that may be for just a moment. If the seller really believe right or wrong that this motor is new then he is doing NOTHING illegal. He simply can't evalute the condition right in which case the feedback system will document this. As a mod I would find it difficult to take action on this one (sorry just being honest). I know this next comment isn't going to be popular with some of you and that is fine but I don't see that anyone has proven he is a scammer. There just isn't proof for that. There seems to be proof that he can't tell a used motor from a new motor but that is an issue in and of itself. So this is just my opinion but if you push it then you cuold find that you are the one getting points and getting banned. This is the key issue and one that could turn into a double edged sword for anyone who tries to go after him.

So my question now is where is the proof that he knows the difference between a used engine and an old / new engine? Find that proof and you have him I think. Till then, I suggest you do what you are doing, keep everyone informed but don't attack him personally or call him a names like scammer. That would only get you in trouble which may actally make him look ok again ... you become the bad guy and he gets set free

In closing, don't let your emotions get the best of you when posting, think 3 times before posting anything and have hard solid facts. Good luck and thanks to everyone who are helping us stay safe.

+1, I think he has stated in the past he does not know much about glow motors due to being a glider guy.
Bob
Mar 23, 2012, 09:57 AM
Trader Rating: 0
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Johnbyrne the proof is the fact Hemi was the second person to buy this "new" engine. He sent it back and Kim relisted it as new a 3rd time. The engine in question is quite possibly heading for it's 3rd PayPal dispute. How many before John Kim realizes that it's possible the "new" engine he is trying to sell is in fact used. 2 too many I'm thinking which makes it fraud on one count. Add another count to what he mailed to shoo.

I'd still like Kim to explain why he is using a stolen picture from a UK website in his ad to sell an obvious used engine as new for the third time.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruff
+1, I think he has stated in the past he does not know much about glow motors due to being a glider guy.
Bob

For a glider guy he sure knows a whole lot about crystals.

Interesting, your mention of Mr. Kim. He did not get in trouble with the law, despite getting caught red handed with a transmitter and box of crystals in the parking lot at Madera, and had a history of shooting down models at Sepulveda Basin and elsewhere. The fuzz just didn't want any part of prosecuting him for his actions. Whether it's because it was dissed as only involving toy airplanes, or because they didn't think the DA could make a case, it does illustrate the problems in taking a case against a 'rogue' flyer to court. If you can't win against somebody with malicious intent, how in the world can you expect to win a suit against somebody that shot you down because he had poor manners, or just plain screwed up? It's just not going to fly as a legal issue, so better to try for a gentlemen's agreement.
Oh......... and BTW, Mr. Kim was spotted by several persons at the AMA Convention in Pasadena a couple of months after the incident at Madera. Why did AMA let him in?
Mar 23, 2012, 10:02 AM
Trader Rating: 30
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
I know this next comment isn't going to be popular with some of you and that is fine but I don't see that anyone has proven he is a scammer. There just isn't proof for that.
What would you consider "Proof" of him being a scammer? He has been told by TWO people who purchased (and returned) the exact same engine from him that is is, in fact, used; and he still puts it up for sale as "unused". Then, when the people who had this exact engine in their hands (and took pictures of it) posted those photos in his for sale thread, he deletes them and says "will send pictures upon request". I'm no lawyer, but that just stands out to me as someone who is willfully trying to mislead potential buyers. IMO, you can't show much more proof than that.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:11 AM
Trader Rating: 30
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruff
+1, I think he has stated in the past he does not know much about glow motors due to being a glider guy.
Bob
That doesn't excuse him from his actions. I know very little about turbines, but I sure as hell wouldn't sell one as "Unused" if it looked like this.

Mar 23, 2012, 10:31 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
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After having it returned to him because it was advertised as new and was OBVIOUSLY not and then turning around and selling it AGAIN as new is FRAUD. I'm all for giving every benefit of the doubt but come on...
He also dropped the price from $200 to $100. Is the USED engine a good deal at $100? That's irrelevant!
Mar 23, 2012, 10:35 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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AND he is charging $15 every time it gets returned!
Mar 23, 2012, 10:38 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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AND he the pic he posted of the engine was lifted from another website.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:39 AM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcnally
That doesn't excuse him from his actions. I know very little about turbines, but I sure as hell wouldn't sell one as "Unused" if it looked like this.

The reason it looks like that is because it was submerged in alcohol.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:42 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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Is it because of his 5000+ posts? If he was a newbie I think he'd have been given a vacation already.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:51 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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So let's say in some bizzaro world P83 HONESTLY believes his turbine has never been used. For some reason he posts the pics of ANOTHER turbine that he lifted from another site and sells it. The buyer sees what he bought is OBVIOUSLY not new and returns it explaining that there is no way the turbine has never been used. What would Porcia do if he was NOT a scammer? Would he turn around, use the same pic, and advertise it again as new?
Mar 23, 2012, 10:52 AM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
So my question now is where is the proof that he knows the difference between a used engine and an old / new engine? Find that proof and you have him I think.
John, what more proof do you need?

Here is the thread I responded to: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1600273

That picture is not the engine I received!


Here are some pics of the one that showed up in my mailbox.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/thum...attach&u=82275


More proof - read the whole thread, including the conversation between myself and John Kim...

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1608189



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kim
Before you guys gang up and bash me for fun, beware of your legal responsibility. You are liable for defamation if you accuse someone without factual foundation.

First thing you should know is the axiom that you get what you paid for. New Enya 90-4c costs $300 and it is not even availabe since it was discontinued more than 10 years ago.
This buyer jumped into the deal because it was sold at a bassement bargain price of $100. This greedy fellow even expected a factory fresh engine even without carefully reading ad describing the condition of the engine.

The engine was described in ad as new, never used but was in storage for 10 years and frozen. The muffler shows discolored spot due to old age. The engine was immersed in alcohol for several days to dissolve residue from castor oil and to free moving parts. Caster oil residue is from factory test run.

The buyer thought this engine was used and wanted to return. He was told he could return it for refund, but $15 shipping expense is not refundable according to sales ad.

In order to get a full refund including $15 shipping charge, he filed a false claim with Paypal stating "internal damage" as a reason for return. When I examined the engine after it was returned, no defects were found. The buyer was unable to explain what he meant by "internal damage". It proves that he is simply a finical buyer who changed his mind after purchase.

This was my first and last 4 cycle engine and I haven't learned how to use 4 cycle engines to this date.

Caution: Do not delete this post or it will be posted on my own thread.

According to Mr Kim:

a) I got a screaming deal on a used engine that cost $300 new, even though he advertised it as new.
b) I am an idiot and so are 47 other people who voted in that poll
c) He does know glow engines, because he knows more than the others that posted in that thread
d) He can't find any defects, even though I posted multiple pictures of what's wrong.
e) I am "greedy" for expecting the engine to be as he advertised it - "new and unused"

Oh, and the buyer did explain the internal damage - 1)used: ie it's worn from running, 2) the bearing are rusted from improper storage

What this all boils down to is two points
a) the engine was grossly misrepresented multiple times over several sales
b) Mr Kim will not admit he is wrong or has made a mistake

I was at least the second buyer of this engine. The buyer prior to me had to go the same route and file a Paypal claim because he too didn't want to be paying to ship this thing around the country.

"The Enya 90 four stroke he sold me was advertised as NIB and was not new. I did receive a full refund from paypal including the original shipping. It is beyond me why John continues to exhibit the behavior he does. To imply the engine is new or changed because of being stored is ridiculous. It would seem he would learn from his mistakes, but they are reoccurring time and time again."
Last edited by Hemikiller; Mar 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM.
Mar 23, 2012, 10:54 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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I'm also really curious if Mr Kim, now that he's taken pics of said engine down but available on request, is sending out pics of the ACTUAL engine or the FRAUDULENT pics from the UK site.
Mar 23, 2012, 11:49 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
I have not quoted anyone, it's general advice to anyone, about anyone.

Those that respond in the defensive, well......
False. Your intent was clear. Your denial isn't working.
Mar 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Is it because of his 5000+ posts? If he was a newbie I think he'd have been given a vacation already.
For what would he be given a vacation?
Mar 23, 2012, 11:55 AM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemikiller
John, what more proof do you need?

Here is the thread I responded to: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1600273

That picture is not the engine I received!


Here are some pics of the one that showed up in my mailbox.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/thum...attach&u=82275


More proof - read the whole thread, including the conversation between myself and John Kim...

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1608189






According to Mr Kim:

a) I got a screaming deal on a used engine that cost $300 new, even though he advertised it as new.
b) I am an idiot and so are 47 other people who voted in that poll
c) He does know glow engines, because he knows more than the others that posted in that thread
d) He can't find any defects, even though I posted multiple pictures of what's wrong.
e) I am "greedy" for expecting the engine to be as he advertised it - "new and unused"

Oh, and the buyer did explain the internal damage - 1)used: ie it's worn from running, 2) the bearing are rusted from improper storage

What this all boils down to is two points
a) the engine was grossly misrepresented multiple times over several sales
b) Mr Kim will not admit he is wrong or has made a mistake

I was at least the second buyer of this engine. The buyer prior to me had to go the same route and file a Paypal claim because he too didn't want to be paying to ship this thing around the country.

"The Enya 90 four stroke he sold me was advertised as NIB and was not new. I did receive a full refund from paypal including the original shipping. It is beyond me why John continues to exhibit the behavior he does. To imply the engine is new or changed because of being stored is ridiculous. It would seem he would learn from his mistakes, but they are reoccurring time and time again."
From what I can tell, no one is disputing those facts.

The reality is that any such transaction is between the buyer and seller. The feedback system, and/or the legal system are the proper methods of resolution.
Mar 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
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So scammers shouldn't be banned by the mods?
Mar 23, 2012, 12:38 PM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
From what I can tell, no one is disputing those facts.

The reality is that any such transaction is between the buyer and seller. The feedback system, and/or the legal system are the proper methods of resolution.
Yes, you are correct. The problem here is that the site is continuing to let him list thing for sale when it has been proven by myself and several others that he is either completely clueless or a lying scammer. Either way, he should not be allowed to sell here. There have been plenty of users that were banned for similar tactic, I just don't understand why not this one.

In case you are not aware, I had to foot the cost of send that engine back to him, as did the buyer before me. Paypal doesn't refund that at all.

So, he essentially stole $12 from my family and a similar amount from the previous buyer, does that put it in a different light?
Last edited by Hemikiller; Mar 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM.
Mar 23, 2012, 12:59 PM
Trader Rating: 100
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johnbyrne's Avatar
I don't know what else to say. Many of you are misisng the points being made. We agree with you. Now figure out how to prove it say in a court of law. Sorry but right now it is his word against the couple he sold it to. Forget the rest who agree, they don't come into play for an RCG determination of fruad.

If this went to court I'd say there would be no question that the court would rule that he is wrong and the engine is used but I"m not sold they would rule that he commited fraud in that he may for some crazy reason really think it was new.

All I'm saying is don't let emotions get the best of you and get you points. Keep the fight going and find more proof. I don't know what else to say. I'm on your side and simply trying to help some understand how to win the battle and war.
Mar 23, 2012, 01:09 PM
Trader Rating: 22
most exalted one
Re his 5000 posts. Half of them are posts recommending chinese tx's or modules instead of other radios, every chance he got.
Mar 23, 2012, 01:10 PM
Trader Rating: 30
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
I don't know what else to say. Many of you are misisng the points being made. We agree with you. Now figure out how to prove it say in a court of law. Sorry but right now it is his word against the couple he sold it to. Forget the rest who agree, they don't come into play for an RCG determination of fruad.

If this went to court I'd say there would be no question that the court would rule that he is wrong and the engine is used but I"m not sold they would rule that he commited fraud in that he may for some crazy reason really think it was new.

All I'm saying is don't let emotions get the best of you and get you points. Keep the fight going and find more proof. I don't know what else to say. I'm on your side and simply trying to help some understand how to win the battle and war.
RCG is not a court of law. The ONLY way to beat these guys is to call them out and cause a stink about it. What about this guy? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1619580 Should we leave him alone and let him continue to scam people?
Mar 23, 2012, 01:50 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
So scammers shouldn't be banned by the mods?
What rule do you feel is broken?


What WE think should happen is not relevant. It isn't OUR site. What JB wants to happen is what the mods should do.
Mar 23, 2012, 01:51 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemikiller
Yes, you are correct. The problem here is that the site is continuing to let him list thing for sale when it has been proven by myself and several others that he is either completely clueless or a lying scammer. Either way, he should not be allowed to sell here. There have been plenty of users that were banned for similar tactic, I just don't understand why not this one.

In case you are not aware, I had to foot the cost of send that engine back to him, as did the buyer before me. Paypal doesn't refund that at all.

So, he essentially stole $12 from my family and a similar amount from the previous buyer, does that put it in a different light?
Why not? What business is it of the site owners? They specifically deny any culpability for any deals conducted in the FS/W areas, and each user should have no doubt about that. The feedback system and the legal system are the remedy routes.
Mar 23, 2012, 01:54 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcnally
RCG is not a court of law. The ONLY way to beat these guys is to call them out and cause a stink about it. What about this guy? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1619580 Should we leave him alone and let him continue to scam people?
If people actually get scammed, they should submit appropriate feedback, and decide if they want to pursue legal remedies or not.


The point is, if any users take it upon themselves to follow a seller around through the FS/W ads, and post in each FS/W ad they post, it is very likely to get mod action against those following the seller around.
Mar 23, 2012, 02:01 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
It all depends on what is said, and how it's said. People are allowed to post pretty much anywhere they want. The starter of the thread can delete as they wish.

Sometimes people go to all kinds of threads and post endless questions but never accept answers. Some people give advice. Some people given their opinion on politics. Others do a great job rooting out people who are looking to steal from others. Most times most comments are mostly good. Sometimes not. Others just report and report posts. To each his own right?

The beauty of RCG.....
Mar 23, 2012, 02:04 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account

Porcia can't afford a turbine!


Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
So let's say in some bizzaro world P83 HONESTLY believes his turbine has never been used. For some reason he posts the pics of ANOTHER turbine that he lifted from another site and sells it. The buyer sees what he bought is OBVIOUSLY not new and returns it explaining that there is no way the turbine has never been used. What would Porcia do if he was NOT a scammer? Would he turn around, use the same pic, and advertise it again as new?
If I know Porcia well enough, and I think I do..he would take the turnbine out of the alcohol, then drink it.
Mar 23, 2012, 02:04 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
It all depends on what is said, and how it's said. People are allowed to post pretty much anywhere they want. The starter of the thread can delete as they wish.

Sometimes people go to all kinds of threads and post endless questions but never accept answers. Some people give advice. Some people given their opinion on politics. Others do a great job rooting out people who are looking to steal from others. Most times most comments are mostly good. Sometimes not. Others just report and report posts. To each his own right?

The beauty of RCG.....
Those who post incessantly in the FS/W threads of others may get their posts deleted by the thread starter. Alternatively, those posts CAN be reported as violations. It is up to the thread starter as to which route to take.


And, I see that once again, you attempt to make it personal. Yes, I know, you haven't named any names, but once again, your meaning is clear.
Mar 23, 2012, 02:23 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
???
Mar 23, 2012, 02:52 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
What rule do you feel is broken?


What WE think should happen is not relevant. It isn't OUR site. What JB wants to happen is what the mods should do.
I guess what I'm feeling is if there was no rule broken than perhaps the rules need to be tweaked. In a clear cut case of intentional deception, which i think(?) we all agree on, the fradster should be banned.

And yes, this is a privately owned sitevso they can kick anyone they want to off, no?
Mar 23, 2012, 02:55 PM
D W
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Don't ban him and in a month or so when this is all but forgotten he'll sell that same engine to another unsuspecting fellow hobbyist.
Mar 23, 2012, 02:59 PM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
Why not? What business is it of the site owners? They specifically deny any culpability for any deals conducted in the FS/W areas, and each user should have no doubt about that. The feedback system and the legal system are the remedy routes.
If it's no business of the site owners what occurs in the FS/W threads, then take a look at the thread about Corgicowpockets. There's a member that tried to steal $35 from a member and got caught, called out and was banned. If that doesn't demonstrate the mods willingness to boot scammers and thieves, I don't know what does.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:12 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemikiller
If it's no business of the site owners what occurs in the FS/W threads, then take a look at the thread about Corgicowpockets. There's a member that tried to steal $35 from a member and got caught, called out and was banned. If that doesn't demonstrate the mods willingness to boot scammers and thieves, I don't know what does.
What was the reason for the ban? MOST TraderTalk bans I have seen in RCG were due to the actions in the posts after the trade, and not for the trade itself.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:13 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Don't ban him and in a month or so when this is all but forgotten he'll sell that same engine to another unsuspecting fellow hobbyist.
Correct. Once again, it isn't OUR choice, but the choice of the site owner. In fact, the site owner has clearly stated his views in a SS/C post about this very issue with this person.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:16 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
What was the reason for the ban? MOST TraderTalk bans I have seen in RCG were due to the actions in the posts after the trade, and not for the trade itself.
Troll/Spam account. He had multiple names, and it looks like he had some big problems with his old name (which is now tacked on to his last known name).

The fact that he referenced being a disabled vet with only months to live is the foulest thing I've seen on here yet.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:17 PM
D W
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"Correct. Once again, it isn't OUR choice, but the choice of the site owner. In fact, the site owner has clearly stated his views in a SS/C post about this very issue with this person."

Well then what's wrong with a topical, intelligent, courteous discussion of whether there is a need for the site (the owner) to change a bit?
Mar 23, 2012, 03:21 PM
Trader Rating: 30
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
Troll/Spam account. He had multiple names, and it looks like he had some big problems with his old name (which is now tacked on to his last known name).

The fact that he referenced being a disabled vet with only months to live is the foulest thing I've seen on here yet.
That and the direct threat he made. This is why these people just need to be quietly banned and have their IPs blocked. It shouldn't get to the point where people are threatened for trying to protect others from their scams.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:38 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
Troll/Spam account. He had multiple names, and it looks like he had some big problems with his old name (which is now tacked on to his last known name).

The fact that he referenced being a disabled vet with only months to live is the foulest thing I've seen on here yet.
The sales were not the defining fact for his ban then. The FS/W acts were not the reason, his posts after the fact and other issues were the reason.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:39 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Well then what's wrong with a topical, intelligent, courteous discussion of whether there is a need for the site (the owner) to change a bit?
Nothing is wrong with it. It just will not bear the desired fruit, other than to foment discord and debate.
Mar 23, 2012, 04:57 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
Nothing is wrong with it. It just will not bear the desired fruit, other than to foment discord and debate.
Ironic.
Mar 23, 2012, 04:58 PM
Trader Rating: 128
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
The sales were not the defining fact for his ban then. The FS/W acts were not the reason, his posts after the fact and other issues were the reason.
Nobody said the sale was the defining fact for his ban. And you have no evidence that his posts after the fact had anything to do with his being banned. The "other reason" is that he had a spam/troll account, which I indicated above.
Mar 23, 2012, 05:23 PM
Trader Rating: 100
Often wrong ("wife")
johnbyrne's Avatar
I just noticed that Jim B responded to the SSC post. Drum roll... he said pretty much what I've been trying to say all along so again, if you pursue this one, be careful or you will be the one banned. Just a heads up. It can be done .. just do it right.
Mar 23, 2012, 05:59 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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Originally Posted by johnbyrne
"I don't know what else to say. Many of you are misisng the points being made. We agree with you. Now figure out how to prove it say in a court of law."

What I don't understand is why does it need to be proven in a court of law to get him banned? Shouldn't it just be enough to convince the mods/owner????
I couldn't find it and perhaps it doesn't exist but usually businesses have a clause stating "we retain the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason..." or some such.
Has he threatened the site with legal action?
Mar 23, 2012, 06:58 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
Nobody said the sale was the defining fact for his ban.
It was clearly insinuated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porcia83
And you have no evidence that his posts after the fact had anything to do with his being banned. The "other reason" is that he had a spam/troll account, which I indicated above.
Actually, other members stated the spam/troll account and the other posts as reason.
Mar 23, 2012, 07:04 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
I just noticed that Jim B responded to the SSC post. Drum roll... he said pretty much what I've been trying to say all along so again, if you pursue this one, be careful or you will be the one banned. Just a heads up. It can be done .. just do it right.
Exactly.
Mar 23, 2012, 07:38 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
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This thread, unlike quite a few (most?) others has been above the board. No name calling or threats or behavior that would deserve points. Just civil debate over why a proven fraudster is still allowed onto the site.
Mar 23, 2012, 11:10 PM
Trader Rating: 100
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johnbyrne's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
"I don't know what else to say. Many of you are misisng the points being made. We agree with you. Now figure out how to prove it say in a court of law."

What I don't understand is why does it need to be proven in a court of law to get him banned? Shouldn't it just be enough to convince the mods/owner????
I couldn't find it and perhaps it doesn't exist but usually businesses have a clause stating "we retain the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason..." or some such.
Has he threatened the site with legal action?

obviously a court of law isn't needed .. just making a point about the level of proof that is/will be needed to convince the mods/owners
Mar 23, 2012, 11:30 PM
D W
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D W
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Hard to figurenhow much more they would need. The evidence presented is pretty damning.
As per wikip "Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.
The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true."

I think(?) we agree that it is more likely true that Mr Kim committed fraudulent behavior then not true.
Mar 24, 2012, 08:23 AM
Trader Rating: 100
Often wrong ("wife")
johnbyrne's Avatar
[QUOTE=D W;21124752]Hard to figurenhow much more they would need. The evidence presented is pretty damning.
As per wikip "Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.
The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true."

I think(?) we agree that it is more likely true that Mr Kim committed fraudulent behavior then not true.[/QUOTE

I agree with respect to if the engine was really new or used but I do not agree with respect to if he really understands that fact. Now I have an opinion but that is all it is, an opinion and there is the real issue which will block the mods right now. This is what must be circumvented but hasn't been. The piece of "evidence" missing is something like a post by him stating that the engine wasn't new or has been run or something. Does that exist?

(note: also, I keep talking about what the mods will and won't do, this is my opinion too based on past actions and nothing more .. just thought that was worth stating)
Mar 24, 2012, 08:38 AM
Trader Rating: 744
Indoor Free Flight Modeler
Reading JB reply on this matter I think the only way to get a person like this off RCG is to get him on a know site rule violation like how they got Al Capone for tax evasion. I do think that following him around the site and posting in his threads may unfortunately result in the person giving the warnings to others getting point violations instead, probably for trolling or obnoxious behavior. It may be best to PM those who post interest in his for sale threads since the post will not be able to be deleted.
Mar 24, 2012, 09:14 AM
Trader Rating: 173
Twistaholic AMA 134406
Dad_Roman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
...
Im thinking the "Self Policing" efforts by some here recently have been exemplary
Mar 24, 2012, 10:07 AM
Trader Rating: 305
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbyrne
The piece of "evidence" missing is something like a post by him stating that the engine wasn't new or has been run or something. Does that exist?
John, this single post that I put up shows the complete and unedited conversation I had with him.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=49

His story went from "new and unused" to " I don't remember, I believed I bought it new", to "If you expected the original factory fresh condition, you misunderstood my ad. If the engine runs as new, there is no reason for return except your inddecisiveness or misunderstanding on your part."

Oh, and my favorite..

"The price was cut in half from the original price of $200 to find a buyer. I think you got a good deal."
Mar 24, 2012, 11:23 AM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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"-I agree with respect to if the engine was really new or used but I do not agree with respect to if he really understands that fact. Now I have an opinion but that is all it is, an opinion and there is the real issue which will block the mods right now. This is what must be circumvented but hasn't been. The piece of "evidence" missing is something like a post by him stating that the engine wasn't new or has been run or something. Does that exist?"

Giving him the benefit of the doubt he initially may not have known the engine was not new. But after it was returned BECAUSE IT WAS NOT NEW he turned around and sold it again as new. This happened TWICE. So how can anyone defend him with the thought he may have misunderstood the engine is new?
To keep on posting it as new is fraud. How else can this be viewed?
Mar 24, 2012, 02:13 PM
Trader Rating: 100
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johnbyrne's Avatar
Again, I"m certainly not defending him, just pointing out why RCG won't ban him based on this. Bottom line, no one has yet proven he knows it is used. That is the key here. We need something .. a post .. a PM .. something ... in which he says it is used. We can talk about this forever but without that we are doing nothing more than talking about it.

We actually we are, this thread is linked I believe via feedback for him isn't it

Update: Hemi has the closest we have to an admission but it actually establishes his position too somewhat. He isn't posting pictures of the engine now so who knows if it is the same. Yea I think it is but don't really know. When someone buys it and posts pictures showing the same engine then maybe we could connect that with what Hemi said and have a ban. Not sure but maybe.

Yea I know, this is kind of sad and frustrating when you think about it.
Mar 24, 2012, 02:37 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
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Again, there is more than enough evidence that he was told by to different buyers that itvwas used. What more than that do you need.
Getting him to admit now that it is used is irrelevant. He could just say "well I did honestly think it was new but I showed it to someone and decided it has been used".
The fact that after the buyers were so upset, posted pictures to get opinions, went thru the trouble of mailing it back and showing him that OBVIOUSLY it was used and then he STILL sold it as new is where the fraud is. How can you say, after the first return, he didn't know it was used?
Last edited by D W; Mar 24, 2012 at 02:48 PM.
Mar 24, 2012, 02:43 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
I love you man.
D W's Avatar
"Yea I know, this is kind of sad and frustrating when you think about it."

Doesn't need to be. Common sense (I'm a big fan of common sense) should prevail. If there are no rules for this behavior than tweak the rules. If not pull executive privilege and ban him for no reason other than the owner CAN.

I know I don't have a rooster in this but I strongly dislike fraudsters, thieves and liars. They certainly don't belong here on RCG. This fraudster needs to be Punished. Hopefully legally but also by getting banned.
Last edited by D W; Mar 24, 2012 at 02:49 PM.
Mar 24, 2012, 02:45 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Again, there is more than enough evidence that he was told by to different buyers that itvwas used. What more than that do you need.
Getting him to admit now that it is used is irrelevant. He could just say "well I did honestly think it was new but I showed it to someone and decided it has been used".
The fact that after the buyers were so upset, posted pictures to get opinions, went thru the trouble of mailing it back and showing him that OBVIOUSLY it was used and then he STILL sold it as new is where the fraud is.
Whether he presents it as new or used does not break a site rule, does it?


I do NOT condone his actions, but like few others, I understand that it is not a subject that the RCG staff typically take direct actions upon.
Mar 24, 2012, 02:48 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
"Yea I know, this is kind of sad and frustrating when you think about it."

Doesn't need to be. Common sense (I'm a big fan of common sense) should prevail. If there are no rules for this behavior than tweak the rules. If not pull executive privilege and ban him for no reason other than the owner CAN.

I know I don't have a rooster in this fight but I will fight fraud, thieves ,liars etc at every chance I get. This fraudster needs to be Punished. Hopefully legally but also by getting banned.
Why 'tweak the rules?' What would you suggest? In any transaction, there are two sides to events. How would you suggest the admin handle it? The most fair method would be to ban both parties.


It is clearly stated that the FS/W is a conveniece to the users, and any transactions are between the buyer and the seller. From there, the remedies are through feedback, Trader Talk, and the legal system. RCG staff are not a party to the transactions.

It is the same as if you post an ad on a bulletin board in the entrance of a grocery store. The store is not responsible for what you post, any more than RCG is responsible for what you post here. Neither are they responsible to verify a seller.
Mar 24, 2012, 05:22 PM
Trader Rating: 0
Registered User
Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme
Why 'tweak the rules?' What would you suggest? In any transaction, there are two sides to events. How would you suggest the admin handle it? The most fair method would be to ban both parties.


It is clearly stated that the FS/W is a conveniece to the users, and any transactions are between the buyer and the seller. From there, the remedies are through feedback, Trader Talk, and the legal system. RCG staff are not a party to the transactions.

It is the same as if you post an ad on a bulletin board in the entrance of a grocery store. The store is not responsible for what you post, any more than RCG is responsible for what you post here. Neither are they responsible to verify a seller.
What's wrong with trying to be a good person. If I owned this site I would ban Kim because he commits fraud and the proof is in the pictures.

I started this thread so John Kim could answer my question about why he stole a picture and used it to sell a used engine as new. Those are facts and your bringing in the court of law and being able to prove it does not wash. Guilt has already been proven.
I'm not interested in what you think should or shouldn't happen. I could care less how you feel on this. I want an answer from Kim and as long as this thread keeps getting pushed up to the top I could care less what RCG does, because I know what I've done to make sure another one of my fellow modelers doesn't buy this used engine as new and lose the shipping back.

So go start your own thread and discuss what ever you want and leave this thread to the people who care about their fellow modelers.
Mar 24, 2012, 05:26 PM
D W
Trader Rating: 6
D W
I love you man.
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I'm only talking about Mr Kim here. Ban both parties? How's that fair?

Tweak the rules so PROVEN fraudsters can be banned. I think this is not really needed as the owner can pull the "it's my site I can do what I want" trump card and ban him anyway.

Perhaps your own wording can be used in the rules : "RCG will not TYPICALLY get involved in on site transactions."
This, thank goodness, is an atypical situation where there is clear and convincing evidence. Morevthan enough, in my opinion (I KNOW, my opinion doesn't matter but if it's plain to me it is plain to anyone) to ban a fraudster.
Mar 24, 2012, 05:27 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
What's wrong with trying to be a good person. If I owned this site I would ban Kim because he commits fraud and the proof is in the pictures.
Who said anything about not 'trying to be a good person?'


HOW would you expect someone at the top to choose who to ban?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
I started this thread so John Kim could answer my question about why he stole a picture and used it to sell a used engine as new. Those are facts and your bringing in the court of law and being able to prove it does not wash. Guilt has already been proven.
Why would you expect him to respond in this thread? Further, how has 'guilt' been proven? So far, what is 'proven,' is that an engine was sold and bought at what appeared to be a bargain price, and which was then returned. The seller got the engine back, and the buyer got the money back.

The rest is 'he said, she said.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
I'm not interested in what you think should or shouldn't happen. I could care less how you feel on this. I want an answer from Kim and as long as this thread keeps getting pushed up to the top I could care less what RCG does, because I know what I've done to make sure another one of my fellow modelers doesn't buy this used engine as new and lose the shipping back.
Once again, what makes you think he will bother to respond to you in this thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
So go start your own thread and discuss what ever you want and leave this thread to the people who care about their fellow modelers.
I care about fellow modelers. Why would you think I don't? Further, why would I not discuss in here, when the subject I am discussing is in this thread?


In a FS/W transaction, one person sells an item, and another person agrees to a price for that item. If it is not as described, the seller can work with the seller to a remedy. It appears that this actually happened, right? If the remedy is not deemed fair to the buyer, the legal system IS the proper route for further actions.
Mar 24, 2012, 05:32 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
I'm only talking about Mr Kim here. Ban both parties? How's that fair?
YOU are only talking about Mr Kim. How is a site admin to know which person is right, and which person is in the wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Tweak the rules so PROVEN fraudsters can be banned. I think this is not really needed as the owner can pull the "it's my site I can do what I want" trump card and ban him anyway.
So, how do you feel that the rules could be 'tweaked' to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D W
Perhaps your own wording can be used in the rules : "RCG will not TYPICALLY get involved in on site transactions."
What role do you feel RCG plays in transactions here?


They provide a venue. They do not provide an escrow service, nor do they charge any fees. They also take no actions to verify sellers or buyers. They do not vouch for products sold, nor do they warrant those products. They also do not verify funds of a purchaser.

If you buy a product from an ad in a newspaper, and it is not what the seller described, will you make the newspaper 'ban' that seller?
Mar 24, 2012, 05:33 PM
Trader Rating: 0
Registered User
Mikecam's Avatar
Thread OP
Why would you expect him to respond in this thread?

I don't, that's the whole point, as long as the thread stays at the top I'm happy and I can sleep at night knowing Kim can't sell an item with out people questioning the item as new or used.

Took you 5 minutes to respond and push this thread back up to the top. Thanks
Mar 24, 2012, 05:33 PM
Trader Rating: 43
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecam
Why would you expect him to respond in this thread?

I don't, that's the whole point, as long as the thread stays at the top I'm happy and I can sleep at night knowing Kim can't sell an item with out people questioning the item as new or used.

Took you 5 minutes to respond and push this thread back up to the top. Thanks
I can sleep at night whether he sells to someone or not.


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