Announcing the Guardian 2D/3D Stabilizer - Page 956 - RC Groups
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Jan 28, 2018, 11:25 PM
Registered User
Wintr's Avatar
@lucasislost: You have to select the Radio Stick Menu with four toggles of the mode switch, Menu Option 1 should now be selected, as indicated by a single twitch of the aileron servo(s). Flicking the elevator stick up should advance the selection from 1: Standard to 2: Elevon to 3: V-tail then back to 1. Flicking it down should change it in the opposite order. After a short delay, the elevator should twitch 1, 2, or 3 times, to indicate the setting. When satisfied, use a single toggle of the mode switch to exit the Stick Menu, saving the setting.

This is covered starting at page 9 of the instructions.
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Jan 28, 2018, 11:32 PM
Registered User
Wintr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain MoMo
Two questions come to mind - even after flying with G's for a while!

Control Throw Setup: When setting up the control throws for respective controls surfaces (Ailerons, Elevator, Rudder), I have seen some use the TX Duel Rate to reduce throws. I have also read that this is not a good practice and that this should be corrected mechanically as best as possible. But if you do this as best as possible, and you still need more adjustments, do you use the Guardian servo travel page in setup ? So leave the TX Dual Rate alone??
If full commands to the servos can cause them to jam, then, yes, you need to use the custom servo settings to keep the G from stalling the servos.

Quote:
2D Level setting: When you toggle the switch to set level flight, does the plane have to be level in pitch and roll? Meaning sometimes sitting on landing gear the model is not level, and if the G is set in that condition the the G would see that position as level. Also, does the Guardian use this level setting as datum for other modes other than 2D?

Thanks in advance.
The G assumes the model is level in both pitch and roll when you command it to set level. It uses that stored level in 2D mode, when the controls are at the stored trim values. If you change trim while in flight, it may not return to level, since it will 'see' the new trimmed values as a non-zero command. The level setting is not used in 3D or OFF modes, only the stored trim values.
Jan 29, 2018, 04:24 PM
Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain MoMo
Two questions come to mind - even after flying with G's for a while!

Control Throw Setup: When setting up the control throws for respective controls surfaces (Ailerons, Elevator, Rudder), I have seen some use the TX Duel Rate to reduce throws. I have also read that this is not a good practice and that this should be corrected mechanically as best as possible. But if you do this as best as possible, and you still need more adjustments, do you use the Guardian servo travel page in setup ? So leave the TX Dual Rate alone??
It's best if you can set up the proper throws mechanically. The reason for this has to do with stick response. If you reduce the travel or dual rate settings in the transmitter to 50%, for example, at the receiver end (which is all the Guardian can see) this is indistinguishable from applying half stick. There are other reasons for using mechanical adjustments that make it good practice even without a Guardian.

In cases where this may not be possible you may need to adjust the tx and/or G. Relatively small adjustments, say 25%, are not generally a matter of concern but larger adjustments can be. There are two considerations, stick response and binding.

Let's say you have to reduce throws in the tx to 50% to achieve the recommended deflection. Note that it makes no difference whether you do this with travel settings or dual rates or a combination. This means the G will never see a roll command greater than half stick (roll seems to be where this becomes most apparent but pitch & yaw are also affected). That can result in poor response. This can be compensated somewhat by increasing the 3D setting "Direct rate speed roll" and the 2D setting "Stabilization roll angle".

Binding can also be a problem. Understand that the G is not bound by, and has no visibility of, your tx settings. This means it can and will use all available throw to achieve its 2D and 3D targets. If this causes binding in the aircraft, damage can occur. To prevent this, you must adjust the deflection limits on the servo config tab. It's important to note that these do not work the same way as most tx travel or DR settings. Travel and DR settings are proportional so while affecting the overall range they also affect all intermediate points. The Guardian settings are do-not-exceed limits and have no effect on intermediate values. This means that if you make your 50% reduction using only the G limits, it will limit the total travel but at lesser commands it will still be 100% sensitive while servo movement will stop at half stick.

Bottom line; Try to achieve the needed deflection mechanically. If you must make large throw reductions in the tx, watch for weak response in 2D and 3D and adjust if needed. Always check and make sure that 100% tx throws don't cause dangerous binding and reduce G limits if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain MoMo
2D Level setting: When you toggle the switch to set level flight, does the plane have to be level in pitch and roll? Meaning sometimes sitting on landing gear the model is not level, and if the G is set in that condition the the G would see that position as level. Also, does the Guardian use this level setting as datum for other modes other than 2D?

Thanks in advance.
Some people go through a lot of trouble to achieve precise level settings with bubble levels, digital levels, etc. This is completely missing the point. What you are trying to achieve is level flight. Nearly all planes fly level with a certain amount of nose up. If you set the plane perfectly level on the ground, in flight this setting will generally lose altitude. Also note, by the way, that this is speed sensitive and you are only going to achieve level flight in 2D at one speed. The only way to find out what pitch angle your plane needs is to guess at an initial setting and try it in flight, then make adjustments from that until you find it to your liking.

Also, level flight may not be everyone's goal. Personally I use 2D for landings and rarely in flight. For this, I adjust the 2D pitch to achieve a power-off glide suitable for a nice landing. Since this is at a very low airspeed it requires more nose-up than level flight. This approach works well for me as applying a little more power results in level flight while even more power causes climbing flight.

Regardless of how you plan to use 2D, you will want it set with the wings level and probably more nose-up than you initially expect.
Jan 29, 2018, 04:35 PM
Registered User
Prof100's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22
It's best if you can set up the proper throws mechanically. The reason for this has to do with stick response. If you reduce the travel or dual rate settings in the transmitter to 50%, for example, at the receiver end (which is all the Guardian can see) this is indistinguishable from applying half stick. There are other reasons for using mechanical adjustments that make it good practice even without a Guardian.

In cases where this may not be possible you may need to adjust the tx and/or G. Relatively small adjustments, say 25%, are not generally a matter of concern but larger adjustments can be. There are two considerations, stick response and binding.

Let's say you have to reduce throws in the tx to 50% to achieve the recommended deflection. Note that it makes no difference whether you do this with travel settings or dual rates or a combination. This means the G will never see a roll command greater than half stick (roll seems to be where this becomes most apparent but pitch & yaw are also affected). That can result in poor response. This can be compensated somewhat by increasing the 3D setting "Direct rate speed roll" and the 2D setting "Stabilization roll angle".

Binding can also be a problem. Understand that the G is not bound by, and has no visibility of, your tx settings. This means it can and will use all available throw to achieve its 2D and 3D targets. If this causes binding in the aircraft, damage can occur. To prevent this, you must adjust the deflection limits on the servo config tab. It's important to note that these do not work the same way as most tx travel or DR settings. Travel and DR settings are proportional so while affecting the overall range they also affect all intermediate points. The Guardian settings are do-not-exceed limits and have no effect on intermediate values. This means that if you make your 50% reduction using only the G limits, it will limit the total travel but at lesser commands it will still be 100% sensitive while servo movement will stop at half stick.

Bottom line; Try to achieve the needed deflection mechanically. If you must make large throw reductions in the tx, watch for weak response in 2D and 3D and adjust if needed. Always check and make sure that 100% tx throws don't cause dangerous binding and reduce G limits if necessary.

Some people go through a lot of trouble to achieve precise level settings with bubble levels, digital levels, etc. This is completely missing the point. What you are trying to achieve is level flight. Nearly all planes fly level with a certain amount of nose up. If you set the plane perfectly level on the ground, in flight this setting will generally lose altitude. Also note, by the way, that this is speed sensitive and you are only going to achieve level flight in 2D at one speed. The only way to find out what pitch angle your plane needs is to guess at an initial setting and try it in flight, then make adjustments from that until you find it to your liking.

Also, level flight may not be everyone's goal. Personally I use 2D for landings and rarely in flight. For this, I adjust the 2D pitch to achieve a power-off glide suitable for a nice landing. Since this is at a very low airspeed it requires more nose-up than level flight. This approach works well for me as applying a little more power results in level flight while even more power causes climbing flight.

Regardless of how you plan to use 2D, you will want it set with the wings level and probably more nose-up than you initially expect.
Comment on level flight
I have played with nose up 2D setting on a trikeT28. To land I turn on 2D, reduce power and add down elevator to bring it down to flare. When ready to flare just release elevator and it flares and settles in nicely on the mains then reapply down elevator to plant the nose gear gently.

Bill
Latest blog entry: ZOHD Nano Talon
Jan 29, 2018, 04:50 PM
Mach One
captain MoMo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22
It's best if you can set up the proper throws mechanically. The reason for this has to do with stick response. If you reduce the travel or dual rate settings in the transmitter to 50%, for example, at the receiver end (which is all the Guardian can see) this is indistinguishable from applying half stick. There are other reasons for using mechanical adjustments that make it good practice even without a Guardian.

In cases where this may not be possible you may need to adjust the tx and/or G. Relatively small adjustments, say 25%, are not generally a matter of concern but larger adjustments can be. There are two considerations, stick response and binding.

Let's say you have to reduce throws in the tx to 50% to achieve the recommended deflection. Note that it makes no difference whether you do this with travel settings or dual rates or a combination. This means the G will never see a roll command greater than half stick (roll seems to be where this becomes most apparent but pitch & yaw are also affected). That can result in poor response. This can be compensated somewhat by increasing the 3D setting "Direct rate speed roll" and the 2D setting "Stabilization roll angle".

Binding can also be a problem. Understand that the G is not bound by, and has no visibility of, your tx settings. This means it can and will use all available throw to achieve its 2D and 3D targets. If this causes binding in the aircraft, damage can occur. To prevent this, you must adjust the deflection limits on the servo config tab. It's important to note that these do not work the same way as most tx travel or DR settings. Travel and DR settings are proportional so while affecting the overall range they also affect all intermediate points. The Guardian settings are do-not-exceed limits and have no effect on intermediate values. This means that if you make your 50% reduction using only the G limits, it will limit the total travel but at lesser commands it will still be 100% sensitive while servo movement will stop at half stick.

Bottom line; Try to achieve the needed deflection mechanically. If you must make large throw reductions in the tx, watch for weak response in 2D and 3D and adjust if needed. Always check and make sure that 100% tx throws don't cause dangerous binding and reduce G limits if necessary.

Some people go through a lot of trouble to achieve precise level settings with bubble levels, digital levels, etc. This is completely missing the point. What you are trying to achieve is level flight. Nearly all planes fly level with a certain amount of nose up. If you set the plane perfectly level on the ground, in flight this setting will generally lose altitude. Also note, by the way, that this is speed sensitive and you are only going to achieve level flight in 2D at one speed. The only way to find out what pitch angle your plane needs is to guess at an initial setting and try it in flight, then make adjustments from that until you find it to your liking.

Also, level flight may not be everyone's goal. Personally I use 2D for landings and rarely in flight. For this, I adjust the 2D pitch to achieve a power-off glide suitable for a nice landing. Since this is at a very low airspeed it requires more nose-up than level flight. This approach works well for me as applying a little more power results in level flight while even more power causes climbing flight.

Regardless of how you plan to use 2D, you will want it set with the wings level and probably more nose-up than you initially expect.
Thank you.. The D/R I have in some models rarely goes lower than 75%, but that is still 25% of limits the G can't see so I will try and correct that mechanically as well. With regards to level setting, I also use 2D for landing purposes so perhaps there is no need to fuss about leveling the model on its landing gear.
Jan 29, 2018, 05:12 PM
Registered User
The best technical way is to set the mechanical limits to be the "100%" limit, but you can also use the GUARDIAN's Limits to set those. Its servo limit values.
The Guardian is the 'master' of the servos when it is used, so it is the last device in control of them.

Your TX becomes 'only' a commander..... not a 'limiter' also anymore. And you want it (most of the time) to allow you to send 0 - 100% commands (sticks, pots etc) to the Guardian.

Mind you, you can STILL use limits to the COMMANDS. Such as Dual Rate or Expo etc, and thus not send up to 100% - for certain uses that you might desire. But it is best to UNDERSTAND how the TX and Guardian are working, and also in the various Guardian modes, so the you understand and KNOW what you are setting your TX to be able to do (or not do).
Jan 29, 2018, 05:18 PM
Registered User

2D Trimming


The best way to set up 2D mode (Angle Mode of control) is to do a Level Set with the aircraft positioned Wings LEVEL, and a BIT nose upwards. You can guesstimate how much nose up it would need to maintain ALTITUDE at your most likely flown airspeed (eg a cruising speed).
But ALSO.....
Use a Mix function on your TX to allow you to use one of its POTS or Sliders, to add/subtract some Pitch (Elevator) command from the Pitch channel. Just a handful of %, say 5%. If the Pot/Slider is mid position, it adds '0'.... and at each extreme it adds, or subracts, '5' (or whatever value proves to be of use once tested in flight). Gate that Pot/Slider by the Guardian MODE channel so that it is only active when you go to 2D mode. It simulates having a Trim Wheel in an aircraft - though even better, it is a 'guaranteed' trim state, seeing it is actually telling a Flight Controller what you want and they will continue to assure that is done.
So this now allows you to TRIM the 2D mode.... the ability for the aircraft to maintain Altitude at Airspeed "X".... and adjust it to suit whatever airspeed you are doing, and then can stay hands off the Pitch Stick (Elevator) yourself.

It is then also of use for Landings (and even Take-offs) as you can "dial in" a desired Nose Up state so that the entire landing process is done with some AoA and can be hands off Pitch Stick, with just manual Throttle used for the control of descent rate/angle.
The same for a take-off.... you can just dial in an angle/offset you want it to climb at.

So adding this simple Pot/Slider mix function gives you optimal use of what 2D mode can do!
Jan 29, 2018, 05:28 PM
Registered User
Wintr's Avatar
This exemplifies why I like the G; once you understand the basics, it has a wide range of variations that can be tweaked to your liking, and is often different in each different model. Once you have your model performing comfortably, you can then play with one of the settings to see if it makes things more interesting.
Jan 29, 2018, 08:42 PM
Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC
....So adding this simple Pot/Slider mix function gives you optimal use of what 2D mode can do!
That sounds like a good plan, particularly useful if you have a fingertip slider with a center detent.
Feb 06, 2018, 08:16 PM
Mach One
captain MoMo's Avatar

Guardian RevB versus RevC


I recently purchased another Guardian but unlike my other ones this one is a RevB? All my other ones except the very first ones I got are all RevC. I recall someone saying that the RevC had some improvements. What is the main differences and is it still ok to go with a RevB with upgraded firmware?
Thanks
Feb 07, 2018, 03:14 AM
Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain MoMo
I recently purchased another Guardian but unlike my other ones this one is a RevB? All my other ones except the very first ones I got are all RevC. I recall someone saying that the RevC had some improvements. What is the main differences and is it still ok to go with a RevB with upgraded firmware?
Thanks
Nothing you really need to be concerned about. The sensors were changed in Rev-C and the firmware updated to support the new chips. The old chips in Rev-B are still supported automatically, however, so you can continue to use current firmware and PC software. In testing I thought the new chips performed slightly better in some extreme, probably not realistic tests, but even that advantage was so slim it could just be coincidence. Lots of us are still flying "B" units.

Some mostly irrelevant version info:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=406
Feb 07, 2018, 05:53 AM
Mach One
captain MoMo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22
Nothing you really need to be concerned about. The sensors were changed in Rev-C and the firmware updated to support the new chips. The old chips in Rev-B are still supported automatically, however, so you can continue to use current firmware and PC software. In testing I thought the new chips performed slightly better in some extreme, probably not realistic tests, but even that advantage was so slim it could just be coincidence. Lots of us are still flying "B" units.

Some mostly irrelevant version info:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=406
Thank you !
Feb 18, 2018, 05:53 AM
Fly safe, fly often!
Buzz_Man's Avatar
I am looking for a FC I can use with a very small airplane (580mm wingspan flying wing) that uses elevons (Strix Nano Goblin --> LINK1 & LINK2 )

Would the Guardian be a good choice for LOS & FPV with this airplane?

Thank you
Feb 18, 2018, 09:50 AM
Registered User
Prof100's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz_Man
I am looking for a FC I can use with a very small airplane (580mm wingspan flying wing) that uses elevons (Strix Nano Goblin --> LINK1 & LINK2 )

Would the Guardian be a good choice for LOS & FPV with this airplane?

Thank you
Sure, it is a flying wing. My first Guardian applications were flying wings. The Guardian does the mixing for elevon planes.
Last edited by Prof100; Feb 21, 2018 at 10:51 AM.
Feb 21, 2018, 10:14 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100
Sure, it is a flying wing. My first to applications were flying wings. The Guardian does the mixing for elevon planes.
+1

I have great success in tiny planes. I can fly those now in really windy conditions.


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