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Feb 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg28
Now that's what I am talking about. Would be great for Soling 1M as well as the IOM. How come on a boat that costs $1500 you could not specify a non-tapered pultruded $20 carbon mast?
CF masts are not allowed in either Soling 1M nor IOM. Tapered masts are not allowed in IOM.

John
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Feb 14, 2012, 05:59 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike
Hi Gregg, can't use this on an IOM no CF masts allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
CF masts are not allowed in either Soling 1M nor IOM. Tapered masts are not allowed in IOM.

John
Was that not exactly my point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg28
...Would be great for Soling 1M as well as the IOM. How come on a boat that costs $1500 you could not specify a non-tapered pultruded $20 carbon mast?
Feb 14, 2012, 09:13 AM
Registered User
seefest's Avatar
Its funny you say that. Although IOM's are very popular, I always thought they were WAY overpriced for the technology you are getting. Aluminum masts, fiberglass hulls, two channel max control, and an 8 lb minimum displacement???

Those are 1980's tech for a very expensive yacht(60's and 70's tech actually)

Is it really to keep costs down(because it hasn't), or do they just want to make the IOM slower than it has to be? LOL. It's still a development class(hulls) so obsolete boats are still part of the game. That doesn't keep costs down.

For 1/2 to 2/3 the cost, you can build an all carbon/kevlar US1M with three carbon rigs, 4 channel control, and an all up displacement of less than 6 lbs(way less usually).

BUT, you don't have international racing with the US1M, and not as much regatta activity either, so I guess you're paying for the class not the technology in the boat.
Feb 14, 2012, 09:14 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg28
Was that not exactly my point?
Then the answer is "because we want it that way".

Those are both 'closed' classes - everything is banned unless specifically allowed. The members of those classes have chosen to keep certain restrictions to keep costs down and keep the fleet competitive. They don't want to have their classes subject to techno-war and obsolescence.

If you want the technology freedom, then you need an 'open' class where everything is allowed unless it is forbidden. Like the M.

John
Feb 14, 2012, 09:18 AM
Registered User
If you want to race a carbon masted IOM, just race in the E class. It was one of the predecessors to the IOM and that class has loosened the rules to allow deeper keels and carbon rigs. http://www.naviga.org/index.php/en/s-sailing
Feb 14, 2012, 09:26 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Then the answer is "because we want it that way".

Those are both 'closed' classes - everything is banned unless specifically allowed. The members of those classes have chosen to keep certain restrictions to keep costs down and keep the fleet competitive. They don't want to have their classes subject to techno-war and obsolescence.

If you want the technology freedom, then you need an 'open' class where everything is allowed unless it is forbidden. Like the M.

John
I understand the concept of One Design rules. All classes allow the rules to be amended to improve the class. What I am saying is that a vote to allow the use of non-tapered pultruded carbon fiber masts would greatly improve the ease and reliability of the boats at a minimum expenditure. Relative to the $1500 price tag on the boats, $60 for three new carbon masts is miniscule.
Feb 14, 2012, 10:24 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg28
I understand the concept of One Design rules. All classes allow the rules to be amended to improve the class. What I am saying is that a vote to allow the use of non-tapered pultruded carbon fiber masts would greatly improve the ease and reliability of the boats at a minimum expenditure. Relative to the $1500 price tag on the boats, $60 for three new carbon masts is miniscule.
If you feel strongly, then take the issue to the AMYA class secretary to present as a motion. There is no value in debating it here - all you will get is opinion, but nothing will change without a vote.

John
Feb 14, 2012, 11:14 AM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
A 20 dollar mast will turn into a 125 dollar mast. And its a joke to say IOMs are affordable.
Feb 14, 2012, 11:45 AM
Registered User
ToniGe23's Avatar
lets stay on topic of Marbleheads please guys!
Feb 14, 2012, 01:07 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by seefest
Its funny you say that. Although IOM's are very popular, I always thought they were WAY overpriced for the technology you are getting. Aluminum masts, fiberglass hulls, two channel max control, and an 8 lb minimum displacement???

Those are 1980's tech for a very expensive yacht(60's and 70's tech actually)

Is it really to keep costs down(because it hasn't), or do they just want to make the IOM slower than it has to be? LOL. It's still a development class(hulls) so obsolete boats are still part of the game. That doesn't keep costs down.

For 1/2 to 2/3 the cost, you can build an all carbon/kevlar US1M with three carbon rigs, 4 channel control, and an all up displacement of less than 6 lbs(way less usually).

BUT, you don't have international racing with the US1M, and not as much regatta activity either, so I guess you're paying for the class not the technology in the boat.

Same is true for IOM, and to keep in topic for a M.
What you're paying in the "overpriced" IOM (or Skalpel) is not the technology, is someone to spend a considerable amount of time, designing and building a boat for you ready to sail.
Do it yourself and it will be cheaper.
Feb 14, 2012, 01:59 PM
Registered User
seefest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gio06226
Same is true for IOM, and to keep in topic for a M.
What you're paying in the "overpriced" IOM (or Skalpel) is not the technology, is someone to spend a considerable amount of time, designing and building a boat for you ready to sail.
Do it yourself and it will be cheaper.
I build ALL my boats myself, including designing a few and alot of scratch builds.

I meant by building both boats yourself (from a short kit and sourcing all the rigging), that you can build a higher tech boat(US1M) for 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of an IOM. Everything is expensive on an IOM, and its all low tech stuff. Its expensive because of its popularity. Case in point is the aluminum masts. An IOM groovy aluminum mast is $25-$30 and then another $25 for shipping.($50-$55)
I can get a pultruded carbon kite spar for $10, plus another $10 in shipping. ($20)
Where is the savings there?

The Skalpel M is another story as it IS a hi-tech boat, with hi-tech fittings and rigging, and carbon everything. At least you are getting what you pay for.
Feb 14, 2012, 02:00 PM
Registered User
seefest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
A 20 dollar mast will turn into a 125 dollar mast. And its a joke to say IOMs are affordable.
No it won't if you buy kite spars from a kite supply store. They are just as light and stiff, although no taper.
Feb 14, 2012, 02:01 PM
Registered User
thorsail's Avatar
Marbleheads ?
I got a project boat from a club member this winter, just got the old deck off
last night -as you will see, this old vane boat was converted to RC, with the
sail arm and rudder servo deck mounted - and since the plastic deck was a
mess, well....I want to get the electrics down below , I have already made new
dacron sails, which will go on and old EC-12 spar (wood) . when I took the deck
off I found an inscription saying this hull is based on a "J. Weaver design, circa
1958 called Chick-A-Pat"

any thoughts, tips, ideas ?
Allan
Feb 14, 2012, 02:04 PM
Registered User
seefest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
Then the answer is "because we want it that way".

Those are both 'closed' classes - everything is banned unless specifically allowed. The members of those classes have chosen to keep certain restrictions to keep costs down and keep the fleet competitive. They don't want to have their classes subject to techno-war and obsolescence.

If you want the technology freedom, then you need an 'open' class where everything is allowed unless it is forbidden. Like the M.

John
An IOM is not a closed class. Its a development "box rule" class with a OD rig.
IOM's have almost as much obsolescence as any true development class, BUT they're not cheap and they're not hi-tech.
Feb 14, 2012, 02:41 PM
Registered User
What exactly is it that drives up the price in many classes? In my view it is that users expect to get a boat guaranteed to be almost as fast as the champions without designing or building themselves.

Even with talent it would take a long time to develop or build a boat - suggested over a year for an IOM and 2 - 3 seasons for an M.
Not only does it take time to design and refine, it takes time to source all components and materials, and to travel to compete at top level to prove the design.
After all the effort, results may not be impressive. Compared with that investment, 2000 for a Croatian team IOM correctly tuned does not seem too bad if you can afford it. Look at the price of ready to run Bantock RG65 and even Micro Magics with all the latest Graphite gadgets.

If there is to be a place for cheap sailing, either a good design needs to go into mass production as a strict one design, or a very large number of people need to recognise elements such as the fun of sailing with an old boat, or the satisfaction a home build or an own design, and ignore the comparison with the champions. Until then old boats will continue to go to the attic or the dustbin by hundreds because a better home cannot be found.


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