Freewing Su-35 (Vendor-independent; please read 1st post and stay on-topic) - Page 500 - RC Groups
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Feb 23, 2013, 07:18 PM
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Naturally..................
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Feb 23, 2013, 08:16 PM
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Well I guess so...
But it also all Su-35 setups specific and tells you what powers you will get, and what X amount of balancing will help etc.

Basically balancing has made as good as zero difference to power result.,.. input or output. As long as the balance is 'adeqaute'... which even a PNF lousy sounding fan is really.... you are not going to see any power gains of note.
There is bound to be a bearing wear factor, but I have older PNF 'never balanced much' (quick by hand) that are still running totally fine (the same level of 'fine' they were from the start) after 100's of flights. I also have new motors that have noisy bearings just as they same. So whilst it is technically a factor, it is not a big one in real terms. Certainly not for balances from 'very good' to 'perfect'.
So it is more about reducing reverberations and bringing a sound down to be 'cleaner'. Though go too far and that 'cleaner' sound heads to the other side of non-realistic' sounding too.
One side is buzzy/reverberating... the other side is heading to pure motor/sewing-machine, which sounds just as 'silly' in a scale jet. Though that '100% perfect' side needs all components to be quite accurate too - so that is GOOD, as I don't need to waste any money on those high cost 'precision parts'!.

The CP 10 bladers use stock Lander stuff.. shaft adaptor, rotor, washer, nut, spinner... nothing high precision. The ERC 10- bladers use the 'high precision' shaft adaptor, washer, nut, spinner.
Both took as much time to 'perfect' to the same end results (all three of Lander, ERC and CP)... and sound identical in the end too.
Which I had already tested and proven before (thus never buying the parts again) that the 'high precision' aspect is not truly required. You just don't want to be using 'clearly flawed' bits, like the CS10 3.17mm adaptors were. I have not had one 4mm CS10 adaptor that was not 'good' or more than adequate.
Also once again proven by these Lander & CP's giving equal end result as the ERC anyway. Of course they needed time to setup to that accuracy level, but they all did anyway. (About 20 mins to do the total balancing part for a fan - probably less eventually)

And also in the end, all three sets give identical results on the bench, and then of course in the Su too - as you would expect.
Feb 23, 2013, 09:04 PM
ITTD you're Clear for Takeoff!
IntheTubeDeep's Avatar

New Arrival for Su35


Gentlemen, speaking of families behold the new arrival,:

ERC 12B/HET3w25s on 6s: 40-44A per fan 80-90 total Amps , stated thrust 1.7-1.8kg per fan 3.4-3.6kg expected thrust
Feb 23, 2013, 09:16 PM
Flying Hazard
SU-4ever's Avatar
Wow, nice new Bra for Tatyana!
Looks like expensive brand underwear!
Feb 23, 2013, 09:32 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheTubeDeep
Gentlemen, speaking of families behold the new arrival,:

ERC 12B/HET3w25s on 6s: 40-44A per fan 80-90 total Amps , stated thrust 1.7-1.8kg per fan 3.4-3.6kg expected thrust
Nice fans , where they come from ?
Feb 23, 2013, 09:45 PM
Registered User
Alloy implants!
Feb 23, 2013, 09:51 PM
ITTD you're Clear for Takeoff!
IntheTubeDeep's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SU-4ever
Wow, nice new Bra for Tatyana!
Looks like expensive brand underwear!
Yes Tatianya is pleased-- you know the saying "if woman's happy-- everyone is happy"!
Feb 23, 2013, 11:20 PM
You are a "go" for reentry
Maxthrottle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmanbg
Nice fans , where they come from ?
ERC is short for ExtremeRC.com Owner Mark. He's based in Australia and has some very good performance combinations.
Feb 24, 2013, 02:15 AM
ITTD you're Clear for Takeoff!
IntheTubeDeep's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmanbg
Nice fans , where they come from ?
ERC-- ExtremeRC.com.au, from Down Under!
Feb 24, 2013, 02:15 AM
ITTD you're Clear for Takeoff!
IntheTubeDeep's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey Whiskey
Alloy implants!
Haha....these are the REAL thing...real Russian woman!!
Feb 24, 2013, 02:29 AM
ITTD you're Clear for Takeoff!
IntheTubeDeep's Avatar

ERC 12B/HET3w25 on the Scale


Not bad-- weight of 1 complete unit is 213g, combines 426g, compare that to my other ERC 10B/HET2w30s at 270g or the CP12B/IRR550s at 300g, as mentioned earlier this combo draws 40-44A at WOT for a total 80-90A on 6s and stated thrust 1.7-1.8g, will test when installed in Su35 and post data
Last edited by IntheTubeDeep; Feb 24, 2013 at 02:40 AM.
Feb 24, 2013, 03:09 AM
Registered User
Unfortunately impossible numbers.....
The CS10 - irrespective of what drives it - needs 1000W to get 1.7Kg thrust on the bench.
40A of 6S is not going to do that..... (900W approx for that)

I just happened to be testing across all combos of motor/fans for two days, 5S and 6S, and results back up that commonly reported power to thrust ratio too - including doing the ERC 2w30's on 5S.

Better batteries can make someone's combo put out more power... by supplying more power. But never giving more output power (thrust) for no different input power.
That is even almost motor independent too!
I have L2855 $13 motors, that can only do about 900W and survive long term, but on 5S they do as good as the HET, Lander, CP motors. Identical results still - in power linearity. Power used, for power/thrust out. So that shows even cheap motor possible efficiency differences don't even make notable changes. EG These are low budget $13 motors doing the exact same outputs, for inputs, as $50 and $75 motors. That is because they are all within their capabilites to do so (HET etc under-utilised in this 5S case).... but the main thing is that it shows power is power, you can't get 'more' just because it was a "better" motor.

So on a bench that combo would see 1.6Kg approx.. and that is the peak too. Maybe a split second peak could go over that - if battery volts can hold very high for that split second.
And then it will be way less in any plane too.
My Meteor/Habu has a 1.5Kg combo (bench) and runs at 1.25Kg thrust in-plane.... which is better than typical for aircraft, as the Meteor/Habu has very good ducting. Many other aircraft types can drop to even 1.1Kg or 1.2Kg.... with CS10's. They are very fussy fans - sensitive to any inlet/exhaust factor that upsets them, so unless the plane is made to be, or flukes, being optimal for them, their losses can be high. (higher than for low blade count fans)

When a CS10 'loses' power in a plane, it does not BURN the power... the whole combo just runs with lower power input also. The fan restriction/load makes it incapable of running faster and drawing more power anyway.
So for eg. 1000W and 1.6Kg bench result - if you only get 1.3Kg in-plane then the power for that will be 850W (or whatever that thrust is meant to be), NOT less thrust still for 1000W of input power.
Last edited by PeterVRC; Feb 24, 2013 at 03:14 AM.
Feb 24, 2013, 03:19 AM
Registered User
PS: CS12's are the same, or a bit 'worse' than CS10's in numbers.
They tend to use more power, and give a BIT more thrust... but not quite as good a ratio as the CS10. (eg X more power, for a bit less than X thrust gain).

I didn't get time to go over CS12 combos - though I have done a few tests weeks ago, which are good enough guides of what to expect across the board really.
Feb 24, 2013, 04:17 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC
PS: CS12's are the same, or a bit 'worse' than CS10's in numbers.
They tend to use more power, and give a BIT more thrust... but not quite as good a ratio as the CS10. (eg X more power, for a bit less than X thrust gain).
Peter, did you try L2855 with CS10 in SU-35 or Mig29 by chance?
I was impressed to see bench test (fan in vise) on 6S has 30A without inlet rim and 52A with. Seems the main thrust comes from the blade tips...
Feb 24, 2013, 07:40 AM
Flying Hazard
SU-4ever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheTubeDeep
Haha....these are the REAL thing...real Russian woman!!
Well, not really, real russian would be TITANIUM!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockrat
Seems the main thrust comes from the blade tips...
Makes sense since the wing tip moves at the greatest rotational speed and thus inducing the greatest quantity of movement to the flow although the fan walls decelerate the air and rise its pressure.

In fact, if you measure thrust produced on nozzle outlet it will be higher in the center and lower on the lateral sides but on the fan, the greatest thrust must be produced on the blade tips as you say. I guess this should affect the design criteria for the duct tube lenghth after the EDF units.


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