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Old Oct 23, 2003, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
is this the real size of your rafale?
http://www.modellflugportal.de/frame_jet.htm


very big, too big for me
thats a supersized one. not the same.............
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Old Oct 23, 2003, 11:12 PM
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amit - The AeroNaut one is 1040 mm span, 1340 mm long,area 41 dm sq (3+38)
Old Oct 24, 2003, 12:59 PM
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the one from ejf that i am waiting for has a 33 inch span.
i plan on using 24 cells in it with the schuleber ducted fan unit and a hacker motor, like the vector 2 jet i am planning on making.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 03:10 PM
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Re: Awesome


Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Elston
I need to get myself one of those and ditch my EJF version It looks great Herb ...
I think the EJF one is a great flier, just a bit smaller and designed for twin MiniFan 480's. The thread here (as should perhaps have been clear from the title ) concerns the AERONAUT Rafale.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 04:01 PM
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Rafale


Sorry Herb, I didn't mean to steal your thread.
Joe
Old Oct 24, 2003, 04:33 PM
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Herb,

You wern't whistling Dixie about the cutting out of the hard ply parts. I should have just one hole in the center and placed a MW44 in the Aeronaut Rafale as I assemble it.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 04:47 PM
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Amit, sending you a pm ont your question EJF thingie.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ductedfann
... I should have just one hole in the center and placed a MW44 in the Aeronaut Rafale as I assemble it.
The Aeronaut Rafale can be set up with a single edf fan as well, you "just" need to make your own pants-shaped ducting.

When yours is ready with the MW44, we'll see which one is faster . You only get 30 mins to start yours though, then it's forfait.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 06:18 PM
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Its to late for me so maybe this will help you. The darn wood, if you like take an exato scribe into the wood then trace the wood with a ball point cleaning the tip of your pen often to aid you in following the lines that you need to cut on.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 06:23 PM
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Scroll Saws


You guys cant cut the wood with a powered scroll saw. Like my variable speed Dremel scroll saw? That should cut the wood formers out ? No? Is the wood that hard, if so it must be heavy?
Joe
Old Oct 24, 2003, 06:25 PM
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... oh thanks I am done cutting mine (see pic on previous page). Yes the wood I am told is from a special german forest, something like HartWald .

In a sense it's good - after one is done cutting - that the wood is hard. It's a very high quality hardwood ply, and not heavy at all it seems, especially after you are left with the relatively small final piece.
Last edited by Herb; Oct 24, 2003 at 06:29 PM.
Old Oct 24, 2003, 08:27 PM
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The wood is dense, hearty and it is heavy before you cut out the pieces as Herb mentioned. The tuff part is cutting out the center, cutting the contours, and all the bits. A Dremmel fights the curves the wood destroys the wheels et smoke flames wife yelling what are you burning now. I used a router table to cut the pieces, after trying the coping saw? and Dremmel. Its still a nice kit.
Old Oct 25, 2003, 01:03 AM
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What does it smell like when the bit's start to burn? Sounds stupid I know but I'm a Hardwood Flooring Contractor, and some woods have different smells to them when you cut them. Like Cherry and oak smell like Heck and will burn your eyes(oak can irritate your skin too), Bamboo smells like cotton candy, and Ash and Hart just have a strong smell but dont burn your eyes.

Barry
Old Oct 25, 2003, 03:07 PM
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I'm glad I have a band saw and 2 HP saber saw to cut out this hard plywood.
Old Oct 25, 2003, 03:12 PM
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HEY Ductedfann. How much would you ask to swap out your cut-out parts for my NIB ones ??
Old Oct 25, 2003, 03:54 PM
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I was actually re-reading the instructions yesterday and it looks like a completely straightforward build, due to the excellent quality of the parts, the overall good fit and of course the large degree of pre-fabrication.

One thing that parhaps our German friends can address is about the battery holder. The proposed mechanism is one where the batt is attached (shrinkwrapped) to a cf rod and then inserted into a plug in the back with two Goldstecker connectors.

The other issue is if the CG generally comes out right with 24 (2400 sized) cells, configured as two 12 cell sticks.

One last issue is that I would move the hook attachment a bit back (2-3 cm) as it looks a bit too far forward for my taste.
Last edited by Herb; Oct 25, 2003 at 11:37 PM.
Old Oct 25, 2003, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I was actually re-reading the instructions yesterday and it looks like a completely straightforward build, due to the excellent quality of the parts, the overall good fit and the large degree of pre-fabrication.

One thing that parhaps our German friends cane address is about the battery holder. The proposed mechanism is one where the batt is attached (shrinkwrapped) to a cf rod and then inserted into a plug in the back with two goldestecker connectors.

The other issue is if the CG generally comes out right with 24 (2400 sized) cells, configured as two 12 cell sticks.
Hi Herb,

I will make some photos of the installation.
I don't use the CFK-tube as battery holder.
The battery is sitting at the beginning of the intakes going to the back.

Best Regards,

Ulf
Old Oct 25, 2003, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I was actually re-reading the instructions yesterday,

...

.
Herb do you have an English translation or can you read the Greman ones ?
Old Oct 25, 2003, 11:38 PM
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Sorry I only have the original german ones.
Old Oct 27, 2003, 06:59 PM
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no wonder herb never answered
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:20 PM
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A few more pics. Ducting completed and inserted just for fit:
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:23 PM
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Outer lip comes out the front, inner lip slides over inner fuse:
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:24 PM
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At the back FG ducting fits over fans but inside former, so opening in former has to be large enough to fit both:
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:26 PM
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Herb: any idea why they used a foam lamination on the ducts?
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:27 PM
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Molded fiberglass intake lips:
Old Oct 27, 2003, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregg f
Herb: any idea why they used a foam lamination on the ducts?
I don't know much about the design, but it does sound like a very good idea to me because the glass-foam-glass lamination is very rigid (no riks of implosion I think). As you can see I did not put any carbon tow on this one either. More complex for them to fabricate the ducts though ...
Old Oct 27, 2003, 08:11 PM
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Intake Ducts


I can second Herb's answer I do know that in some of the early glow ducted fan kits back in the 80's used a similar system for the ducts. Before carbon fiber was in wide use in the hobby industry. I had a ducted fan F16 that had similar ducting composition.
Joe


Herb, its a beautiful kit I am debating building my single Midi Rafale or getting the Aeronaut
Last edited by Joe Elston; Oct 27, 2003 at 08:15 PM.
Old Oct 27, 2003, 08:22 PM
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Re: Intake Ducts


Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Elston
... I am debating building my single ...
Looks to me like you have a long queue there already, you could run the risk of getting slightly over-kitted with all its emotional implications .. How's the Kyosho F-16 coming along ?
Old Oct 27, 2003, 08:38 PM
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Kits


Yep Herb, your probably right I am going to keep my Single Midi Rafale and build it. I put the Kyosho F16 on the shelf because I am working on the Jepe F16. I am not going to use the wings I cut for the KY F16 instead I will keep the stock wings and just airbrush the plane. I have 3 jets ready for glass so I need to get them finished after I paint the F16. I went a little overboard there for a while since I havent been able to build because of my health so I stocked up on kits I will be back to building as soon as the fires die down the smoke and ash is tough on the Asthma.
But your Rafale sure is pretty
Joe
Old Oct 27, 2003, 08:45 PM
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joe
why not use the shlueber ducted fan. it produces more thrust than a midi and is best 90 mm fan
Old Oct 27, 2003, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
... use the shlueber ducted fan ..
You might want to learn to spell the name right first
Old Oct 27, 2003, 09:34 PM
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Herb this is great. Keep the pictures coming. It's the next best thing to being able to read German. Post as many as you have, it will assist all of us who can't read the Greman (or French) instructions.
Old Oct 27, 2003, 09:45 PM
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I thought they would be useful ... I'm working slowly so it'll be a while, I'm in no rush ... I think Ulf will get back to us with some pics of how he/they did the battery installation ...
Old Oct 27, 2003, 09:56 PM
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He sent me an e-mail of how it was done. I can paste it here but it is text only.
Last edited by Kevin Murray; Oct 27, 2003 at 09:58 PM.
Old Oct 27, 2003, 09:58 PM
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My Post dissapeared?


Well I had answered your question Amit but it seems that my post somehow dissapeared?

The reason I don't use a Schubler fan is that the ducting for my EJF Rafale was molded from carbon fiber and its a tight fit to the Midi Fan. I do have a new Schubler fan for my EL Bandito and I believe that the Midi Fan is a few millimeters smaller than the Schubler fan. So I will use the Midi Fan I am sure with the correct motor I can get 750 watts from the fan easy. I know that my Rafale will fly with 750 watts no problem especially with retracts and gear doors so I need to pick a motor for the plane.
Have any suggestions Herb?
Joe
Old Oct 27, 2003, 10:00 PM
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Re: My Post dissapeared?


Your post went up as a new thread in the Jets Forum.
Old Oct 27, 2003, 10:30 PM
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Post


Not one of my smarter moves
Old Oct 28, 2003, 03:28 PM
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Former reinforced front and back with carbon tow (instead of supplied plywood doublers), then glued to fuse with Probond PU glue.
Old Oct 28, 2003, 03:30 PM
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Maybe not the prettiest, but very strong lightweight joint:
Old Oct 28, 2003, 03:37 PM
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Very delicate former Herb i would have broken that three times before it got in place, nice model.
Old Oct 28, 2003, 03:39 PM
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Extremely strong & thick German wood though, very hard to cut ...
Old Oct 28, 2003, 03:41 PM
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Hartwalds finest !
Old Oct 28, 2003, 05:03 PM
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I've been using pro-bond in place of epoxy on quite a few things lately with great success. It also cut's down on fillers due to expanding qualities. I have yet to find anything it does not stik to yet either. Including your digit's for long periods of time.


Barry
Old Oct 28, 2003, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Former reinforced front and back with carbon tow (instead of supplied plywood doublers), then glued to fuse with Probond PU glue.
Hi Herb,

i did not reinforced the formers, they are strong enough!
Jörg also did not use the plywood doublers!

Best Regards,

Ulf
Old Oct 28, 2003, 06:03 PM
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Ulf looking forward to some pictures on how you mounted & inserted the battery.

Also let me know if I can post the video of your Rafale ...
Last edited by Herb; Nov 03, 2003 at 08:28 PM.
Old Oct 28, 2003, 06:17 PM
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ahhh! how cool is that! he's shooting rockets?


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Old Oct 28, 2003, 06:19 PM
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I'm watching it again I love it

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Old Oct 28, 2003, 07:34 PM
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Do you guys think it could fly with a MW-44 turbine?


SJ.
Old Oct 28, 2003, 07:35 PM
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that's cool, thanks for the video
Old Oct 31, 2003, 04:06 AM
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Hallo Herb!

You are right, that ply is the hardest stuff you can find! But I tried it yesterday with that saw showen in the picture below. It takes about 6 min to cut out the first former. (the outer line)

What servos do you will use 2,5 kg zise?

Heiner
Old Oct 31, 2003, 04:13 AM
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My Rafale
Old Oct 31, 2003, 07:02 PM
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heiner
how big is your rafale?
Old Oct 31, 2003, 08:06 PM
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The Aeronaut Rafale only comes in one size
Old Nov 01, 2003, 12:15 AM
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does anyone here build the smaller rafales. man these things are big. Cant wait to get the composite from EJF.
Old Nov 01, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Offshore makes a smi-kit for a smaller one.
Old Nov 01, 2003, 12:22 AM
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Do u have a link to offshore?
thanks
amit
Old Nov 01, 2003, 12:57 AM
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http://members.aol.com/offshoreel/modelle1.htm

820 mm wing span.

If you can't read German, as I can't. Babble fish translator dose well.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr
Old Nov 01, 2003, 01:09 AM
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Rafale M


Kevin, that looks very similar to my EJF Rafale M. I kind of like that Citation next to it I will need to check them out. Are you installing retracts in your Aeronaut Rafale Kevin? I still would love to have the Aeronaut but I think my twin EDF will be the new JHH F14 kit I will get the complete kit with the fiberglass parts. I will need to see it wont be till well into next year I have too many jets in the building que now
Joe
Old Nov 01, 2003, 01:23 AM
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Retracts - Yes. They won't even be a stand off scale job though. There is no room in the fuse for retracts. The mains will be a get them out or the airstream scale.
I won't belly land an eight pound glass jet.

I will be putting EJF retracts in the nose and wings. My all composit glass wings are just thick enough for Spring Air 600's or EJF mains. My excess gear weight will easly be made back. I'm useing lightweight fans and batteries.
Old Nov 01, 2003, 09:21 AM
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actually that is the EJF version! The wing span is same as theirs, however, I dont think that was composite glass version. That version uses 2 motors, the composite uses a single 90 mm fan. I just reserved mine with Mr Wagoner this week.
Old Nov 01, 2003, 04:09 PM
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Rafale M


Amit I was unaware that EJF is going to be producing Molded Rafales again. I have the foam wing version with the ducting for a single Midi Fan. Its getting retracts also.

Kevin I guess I am lucky that my Rafale has plenty of room in the fuselage for the retracts with a single Midi Fan. I can even make the gear doors and will.
Joe
Old Nov 03, 2003, 02:41 AM
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All formers glued in, tubes in and Wemotecs premounted, canopy glued .
Old Nov 03, 2003, 02:42 AM
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more
Old Nov 03, 2003, 02:43 AM
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Old Nov 03, 2003, 02:51 AM
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@ Herb!

What servos do you use in your Rafale?

Heiner
Old Nov 03, 2003, 03:54 AM
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Man thats a beautiful bird.


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Old Nov 03, 2003, 04:45 AM
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Hallo Rafale builder!

Are there any photos , suggestions how to drive the cannards with only 1 servo and still get the cells out?

If to manage with 2 single servos, what size will do?

Heiner
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:17 AM
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So far I have not seen any pics of the moveable cannareds. Single or twin servos
Old Nov 03, 2003, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
@ Herb!

What servos do you use in your Rafale?

Heiner

I am using two HS-85 MG metal gear servos for the two elevons and a HiTec superslim 8ch receiver. The receiver battery is 720 mAh NiMhd. Canards are fixed. If you do movable canards, the same servos would work there too.

Target weight around 116 oz max (3.3 kg) on 2 x 10 x Gp 3300 cells. Two Mega 22/20 motors and twin 70 Amp controllers, ca 1250 Watts total target.
Last edited by Herb; Nov 04, 2003 at 01:22 AM.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 11:59 AM
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pic
Last edited by Herb; Nov 03, 2003 at 12:03 PM.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 12:07 PM
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canopy setup
Old Nov 03, 2003, 12:08 PM
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pic of still mostly empty shell
Old Nov 03, 2003, 04:20 PM
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Canards


Herb, I thought that you where going to use functional canards on your Rafale? I am installing them on my EJF Rafale. I understand they help in pitch control and in slow flight?
You dont agree, I have never flown a canard plane so I am only going by what I have been told?
Joe

PS: Gotta love the gold Midi Fans, are they special order only
Old Nov 03, 2003, 05:45 PM
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Slow flight ???

Deltas can be landed quite slow if you have enough up elevator. My EF 2000 is no problem landing it whatsoever as long as I have enough "up" throw - purely a mixing issue.

On the Rafale canards seem to be useful in getting the nose up on landing beyond 4 kg weight, I am told. I like to keep the complexity down in favor of simplicity and ruggedness (kiss principle). Functional canards done right would require two extra servos plus a very rugged mount. If you look at the pictures I have posted above, most of the Rafales there have fixed canards.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 07:16 PM
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Functional rocket's maybe Herb? LOL Maybe add some A.P for the extra kick? haha


Barry
Old Nov 03, 2003, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
http://members.aol.com/offshoreel/modelle1.htm

820 mm wing span.
The Offshore Rafale is designed for 8kg thrust min gas turbine. It's not an electric model and it's a new model as well, none have flown yet anywhere as far as I can tell. There have been concerns about the airframe being strong enough for a turbine.
Last edited by Herb; Nov 03, 2003 at 07:53 PM.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:04 PM
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There Art Two from Offshore.


The 820 mm one for two MiniFans.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:06 PM
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And the new Turbine powered one.


1240 mm
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:07 PM
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You are right! I never noticed that one, I wonder if anybody got that one to fly? Hmm the smaller one looks like a clone of the EJF Rafale ...
Last edited by Herb; Nov 03, 2003 at 08:11 PM.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:12 PM
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It's been on there page a couple of years, I never read a post of one flying.
Old Nov 03, 2003, 08:30 PM
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OffShore Rafale


The little Offshore Rafale looks almost identical to my EJF plane. Except that its got a built up wing as the EJF has a foam wing as we all now, or the new ones will be all composite. I was told by Robert they will be out in December.
Joe
Old Nov 04, 2003, 01:51 AM
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Joe!

I have movable cannards at my ACT Foxbat. Mixed with the other controlls in the back. You receive a much bigger range during flight, very fast to very slow.
I don't want to miss it at my Rafale.

Heiner
Old Nov 04, 2003, 02:07 AM
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Canards


Hi Heiner, well I have the Electric Jet Factory Rafale M and its a single 90mm fan with retracts so its quite a bit smaller than yours. But its good to hear that your functioning canards work well. I will defintely install them on my Rafale. Like you said I have read that the airplane is more manuaverable with working canards
Thanks For the information Heiner. I will post my Rafale in another thread when I start building.
Thanks Joe
Old Nov 04, 2003, 03:08 AM
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If you install a single fan in the Aeronaut Rafale, then it becomes a lot easier to install retracts. With twin fans it's a big of a headache but apprently some have succeded in moving the ducts a bit (1cm) out of the way.

The canards can help pull up the nose if they travel far enough,
Old Nov 04, 2003, 09:57 AM
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Does anyone know how the canards are being mixed? I.E. are they mixed with the eleavons, or are they (the canards) the elevators? Any pictures of the movable canard setup? I imagine that there would have to be a single 368 JR servo like the Foxbat, or two 368s JR high torque same size as HS 81/85 servo.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 11:05 AM
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I mix the cannards with the elevons. Most up on the elevons and just a little on the Cannards. If you want to go extremly slow, a lot of up on the cannards, I put a swich to have both things possible.
A single Servo would be ok, but how is it possible then to get out the batteries?

Heiner
Last edited by Heiner Skroblin; Nov 05, 2003 at 01:45 AM.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 01:43 PM
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You can have a single servo on the canards, with a steel crankshaft
Code:
       =====
      |     |
 =====|     |===================
or similar connecting the two canards. This setup would be sturdier and more resistant to torsional stresses. The stress on a single full flying canard is significant at 100+ mph.

It would be a pain to get the battery in and out, but only if the battery is set up according to instructions (long double stick attached to carbon rod). I don't have a picture of a moving canard setup. The smaller ejf one I saw fly a few years ago had fixed canards and landed just fine.

28 cell setup seems to land nice and slow without movable canards:
Last edited by Herb; Nov 04, 2003 at 01:48 PM.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 02:27 PM
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Thanks Herb for posting the inflight pictures, cant have enough
Maybe I should get a Raf next time I feel spendy....
Old Nov 04, 2003, 02:48 PM
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I think the Panther should be a fantastic flier . The Rafale is actually an extremely good value imo, especially after seeing some of the worthless foam & balsa junk that's out there and the unbelievable amount of money people still insist on pouring into them .
Old Nov 04, 2003, 02:58 PM
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I have only heard good things about the Panther and hopefully I can provide the same once its flown. Only minute things to complete then its RTF though no work on paint/detailing is done. Not needed for a maiden anyhow

I have the Wemo pricelist in front of me and the Rafale is rather cheap compared to whats out there, 380Euro which include 2 Midifans. (290Euro w/o)
The Panther for instance is 449/490Euro wo/w Midifan. The Panther is worth it though, super quality on the components. Same as on the Wemo F16 which was flawless.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 07:11 PM
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I hadn't known that WeMoTec was selling the AeroNaut planes. That's good.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 07:27 PM
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Panther


So 500:00 bux for the Panther with a Midi Fan thats a very good deal. Your right Herb the Rafale is a good value compared to some of the so called kits that are in cirulation. I would very much like a Panther. I will have to look into it.
Thanks Haldor
Joe
Old Nov 04, 2003, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
I hadn't known that WeMoTec was selling the AeroNaut planes.
That's where I bought mine from, including fans decals etc.
Old Nov 04, 2003, 08:13 PM
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I got the Panther from Oliver aswell.
Old Nov 05, 2003, 01:50 AM
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Me also!

@ Herb,

I was thinking about a crank to move and mount the cannards, but still not a solution if I want to get the batteries out without removing the crank.
Or do you figured out some other battery storage. That would be nice, because then I could use all my other 8 and 10 cell packs.?

Heiner
Old Nov 05, 2003, 01:57 AM
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Canards


Heiner, I am going to use one servo per canard on my EJF single Midi Fan version of the Rafale M. I will be able to get the batteries in. I am planning on using Lipos in the airplane and Spring air retracts. Should be a fun plane but its not as nice as yours.
Joe
Old Nov 05, 2003, 02:09 AM
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I am still waiting for Ulf to tell me how he secured his batteries ...

I have this picture (I believe it's Joerg's plane but not sure) where the batts are just piled up ... but I worry that they could crush the ducts if they move just a bit

I am still leaning towards the carbon rod idea, but with two separate packs inline: ==== ==== attached to the rod.
Old Nov 05, 2003, 03:21 AM
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I looked again at Chris' data for the Mega ACn 22/20/2 in the Midi fan:

http://rcgroups.com/links/index.php?...at=206&id=3907

On 12 CP 2400 cells Chris gets about 52 Amps, or around 620 Watts (and 35 A on 10 CP 1700).

I'm trying to estimate the amps with the GP 3300's for the /2 and /3. Due to the lower impedance, 12 GP's could pull a bit more but not much .

The 22/20/3 I then calculate (using & scaling Chris' data) at about 20 amps which is a bit lame on 12 cells. Just barely in the 300 Watts region on 14 cells...
Last edited by Herb; Nov 05, 2003 at 12:50 PM.
Old Nov 05, 2003, 03:31 AM
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May be I have to look for an other motor, to run with less cells.

I was first thinking about my FUN 600-15 and the one from my friend.
But I have to set in then about 20 cells. A lot of cells if I use 2 x 20 off 4/5 FAUP. makes 1,5kg batteries.

Heiner
Old Nov 05, 2003, 09:48 AM
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Herb and all,
Thank you for the info on the cannards et.

Morris


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