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Oct 12, 2011, 05:55 AM
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Greybird's Avatar
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Discussion

Ripple Current, ESC's with limited lifespan, Poor quality batteries?


Appears the end user is still to blame for CC ESC failures? Come on CC... Maybe it is time for some new engineer's to take a look at what can be done to fix the problem?
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Oct 12, 2011, 06:11 AM
Everything is possible
Fahrenheit-145's Avatar
SORRY but I do not think that the Engineers are "incompetent",more I think Bernie,Patrick,Joe,and all others KNOW what they do,REALY!!

But if YOU know whatīs going on,send the solution to Patrick and he will give you a ""Good new Job""
Peter
Oct 12, 2011, 06:19 AM
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Greybird's Avatar
Thread OP
I never said they were incompetent. Some new minds looking at the problem, might be a way to come up with a better/different design that might be less prone to failure. If I owned a company, and a good chunk of my products were failing, (costing me a giant pile of money), It might be time to consider some different people to look at the problem..... I would truly hate to see CC go belly up..........
Oct 12, 2011, 08:04 AM
Everything is possible
Fahrenheit-145's Avatar
They are on the right Way....but all what they must do/Change takes time and money.
To make a new layout of PCB is only the beginning and I know Patrick,he always want to be perfect and also want the best for his customers.

Look arround;at the Moment all producers have Problems,also in Germany or China.I buy many China-ESCīs they also have the same Problems BUT!!! they never make a ""Change in warranty-Action"".
I have here 5 pcs from 120/150A HV-Types and 3 100/120A HV,all of them are burned with fire(flames near 1m high!!!!!!!)some are explodet I must find all spares in my boats(a hand full).Reaction from Seaking...NOTHING!!!

But not all going while overload,2 pcs I have,they blown up while Programming and after restart!!!With the Programm Box.

The location of the real problem is very critical.
Peter
Oct 13, 2011, 10:20 PM
Lou
Lou
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit-145
SORRY but I do not think that the Engineers are "incompetent",more I think Bernie,Patrick,Joe,and all others KNOW what they do,REALY!!

But if YOU know whatīs going on,send the solution to Patrick and he will give you a ""Good new Job""
Peter
Lets face it, there is a problem with the ESC for some time and that is why I have not bought an CC ESC in over 2 years. I can't complain about customer service, it has always been perfect. Even when I smoked a 25a Phoenix with reversed polarity, CC replaced it for free.

Until they fix these cursed ESC problems, I will keep using the existing 'old style' CC ESC ( that are reliable ) and other brands ( that have not failed me either ).

No, they are not incompetent, nor where they called as such, however, there are problems and loosing a big dollar heli or plane only makes the problem even worse for the user.
Oct 14, 2011, 12:03 AM
WingsTiresTitsGunaGiveYaT ruble
bill clark's Avatar
I truly feel bad for CC. Lets remember that the last thing they would have wanted was to cause aggrevation to their customers or damage to models. I have talked to these folks and they are like the rest of us, errr....most of us, good people. I am confident they will make it through this ordeal and will come out stronger. I have 19 of their controllers and one ICE HV80 that had the smoking on "power up" problem which now has many successful flights in a heli after its trip in for warranty 2 times. The other 18 are flawless and I fly 6 days a week and have been for the last 4 years straight so I am actually using them. I have heard that China has supplied inferior components contributing to atleast part of the problem so lets ring their necks. As far as i'm aware you cant verify the quality of most electronic components like FETs, etc. I do believe another big contributer is the user. One scenario is Joe Blow goes to an overseas, non US economy supporting company because he's putting together something more than he can truly afford and buys lower quality batteries and doesnt break them in correctly or just flat out abuses them then the ripple is through the roof. Why should CC have to build a product that can cope with that? I mean what is the limit? How big of a peice of crap battery should the controller be able to deal with? And why should it have to? Hell, why they're at it they may as well have the controllers tolerate 100% overcurrent while running red hot making them completly idiot proof. I for one will continue to use their products because I wish to see them produce and I to use the most technologically advanced controllers available. I'm finished
Oct 14, 2011, 08:38 AM
Lou
Lou
Registered User
Interesting points there, Bill. We pay big, big money for these CC speed controllers. If what you hear is correct about these components coming from China, then CC is not supporting the U.S. economy by getting their components from China? Why is CC getting inferior product from China? That sort of shoots down the Joe Blow scenario of getting cheap overseas components for his low dollar heli and not supporting the U.S economy at the same time, does it not?

Personally, I think CC got blindsided by these problems. It is not what they designed and not what they intended. However, some Asian suppliers are notorious for not being 'straight' about their product. Dealing with them is always iffy. If that is the case, here, then perhaps CC needs to deal with a more local or at least more reliable vendor for components.

The fault here lies apparently with the supplier of parts, not CC and certainly not the user because he bought low dollar parts.
Oct 14, 2011, 05:11 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestUser01
. We pay big, big money for these CC speed controllers
Price a Kontronic ESC.....
Oct 14, 2011, 06:09 PM
Lou
Lou
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick0007
Price a Kontronic ESC.....
I have, and the Jeti Spin. All high dollar speed controllers. The OP has a solid point though, for what we pay for these speed controllers, they should be expected to handle most any motor/battery tossed at them.

When a manufacturer changes the software on their ESC and the user upgrades the ESC and then burns out the motor or ESC, the problem is not, in my view with the user or his gear, but with what the manufacturer did. Especially when one considers that thousands of other hobbists are using same brand motor/battery with other ESC's without problems.

At the same time, if a manufacturer gets a boat load of bum components, then one have to give the manufacturer some leeway in the matter. I am sure CC is doing the best they can to get out of the hole that they currently are in.
Oct 15, 2011, 01:17 AM
WingsTiresTitsGunaGiveYaT ruble
bill clark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestUser01
Interesting points there, Bill. We pay big, big money for these CC speed controllers. If what you hear is correct about these components coming from China, then CC is not supporting the U.S. economy by getting their components from China? Why is CC getting inferior product from China? That sort of shoots down the Joe Blow scenario of getting cheap overseas components for his low dollar heli and not supporting the U.S economy at the same time, does it not?

Personally, I think CC got blindsided by these problems. It is not what they designed and not what they intended. However, some Asian suppliers are notorious for not being 'straight' about their product. Dealing with them is always iffy. If that is the case, here, then perhaps CC needs to deal with a more local or at least more reliable vendor for components.

The fault here lies apparently with the supplier of parts, not CC and certainly not the user because he bought low dollar parts.
To clarify my view........ US companies utilizing imported goods is common place. International trade, right? We sell to other countries too.What aggrevates me, especially in these economic times is when an individual will completly bypass our economy to save a buck when a comparable or better product can be bought here. In my eyes thats not very patriotic. No wonder ma and pa hobbyshops are dropping like flies. I purchase cheap, imported batteries (my research shows that there are no US companies that manufacture lipos for our needs so I guess they all are imports) but they are from a US company/distributor that employs folks here in the US that get a paycheck and profits from that company stay here at home. I have verified this. The mention of faulty components may just be a rumor but makes sense. I seriously doubt CC put out a product that hadnt seen significant testing first and the fact that its happening with more than one model seems to support the idea. I wouldnt be surprised if some of the types of components used in their products are even available from a US company so they may not have the choice. There is plenty of good quality stuff coming from overseas. Most small and micro electronic components are manufactured by a completly automated processes so it really doesnt matter what country they are made in from a quality standpoint. Quality control and material/component qualification/ certification can glitch anywhere too.
Oct 18, 2011, 07:57 AM
iumop ap!sdn w,I
G.P.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill clark
One scenario is Joe Blow goes to an overseas, non US economy supporting company because he's putting together something more than he can truly afford and buys lower quality batteries and doesnt break them in correctly or just flat out abuses them then the ripple is through the roof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill clark
I purchase cheap, imported batteries (my research shows that there are no US companies that manufacture lipos for our needs so I guess they all are imports)
So they're all made overseas, but the ones that have a middle man in the U.S. mark up the price are the good ones???

I've posted a few times now asking Castle what constitutes a low quality lipo, but I still haven't gotten a straight answer. I still don't see how todays "cheap" batteries are the problem. The cheap batteries now-a-days are far more capable of putting out power than my "high end" batteries of 6-7 years ago. We abused those batteries too...there was no such thing as storage charge, break-in, balance leads, and we constantly flew to LVC...and esc's weren't constantly exploding back then. There is no way that the "cheap" batteries of today, with at least 4 times the C ratings of yesterdays high end lipos, are having problems supplying esc's as well as lipos did in the past.

To me this seems like a scapegoat for a possibly bigger issue. I never read this many reports of problems when the Phoenix line was in use, or before parts of the manufacturing were moved out of the U.S.

BTW, you state that you use cheap lipos, but have only had one esc issue out of 19 esc's. If cheap batteries are THE issue, shouldn't you have had more problems?
Latest blog entry: Canola Huckin'
Oct 18, 2011, 11:54 AM
WingsTiresTitsGunaGiveYaT ruble
bill clark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.P.
So they're all made overseas, but the ones that have a middle man in the U.S. mark up the price are the good ones???

I've posted a few times now asking Castle what constitutes a low quality lipo, but I still haven't gotten a straight answer. I still don't see how todays "cheap" batteries are the problem. The cheap batteries now-a-days are far more capable of putting out power than my "high end" batteries of 6-7 years ago. We abused those batteries too...there was no such thing as storage charge, break-in, balance leads, and we constantly flew to LVC...and esc's weren't constantly exploding back then. There is no way that the "cheap" batteries of today, with at least 4 times the C ratings of yesterdays high end lipos, are having problems supplying esc's as well as lipos did in the past.

To me this seems like a scapegoat for a possibly bigger issue. I never read this many reports of problems when the Phoenix line was in use, or before parts of the manufacturing were moved out of the U.S.

BTW, you state that you use cheap lipos, but have only had one esc issue out of 19 esc's. If cheap batteries are THE issue, shouldn't you have had more problems?
-reread the posts. I never said batteries were 100% of the problem (batteries/components/abuse). As for my use of cheap (not always poor quality) batteries I have only recently started using them because I cant afford what I want at the moment. My problem with the HV definetly is a component, not battery issue and I dont abuse my stuff
-Years ago we werent pulling 150amps. It seems the bulk of the issues are with 100A esc's and up?
-some where here is a max ripple recomendation from CC
-Pheonix (non ICE) I believe is a better controller and you can see it in the price.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match I just think a little support for these guys would go along way instead of beating them when they're down and pointing out it may not be all them. I know one thing is for sure this hobby and its technolgy has been put into far less capable hands than say it did even 10 years ago
Last edited by bill clark; Oct 18, 2011 at 12:03 PM.
Oct 18, 2011, 06:36 PM
I hate waiting for parts
Mike_Then's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.P.
So they're all made overseas, but the ones that have a middle man in the U.S. mark up the price are the good ones???

I've posted a few times now asking Castle what constitutes a low quality lipo, but I still haven't gotten a straight answer. I still don't see how todays "cheap" batteries are the problem. The cheap batteries now-a-days are far more capable of putting out power than my "high end" batteries of 6-7 years ago. We abused those batteries too...there was no such thing as storage charge, break-in, balance leads, and we constantly flew to LVC...and esc's weren't constantly exploding back then. There is no way that the "cheap" batteries of today, with at least 4 times the C ratings of yesterdays high end lipos, are having problems supplying esc's as well as lipos did in the past.

To me this seems like a scapegoat for a possibly bigger issue. I never read this many reports of problems when the Phoenix line was in use, or before parts of the manufacturing were moved out of the U.S.

BTW, you state that you use cheap lipos, but have only had one esc issue out of 19 esc's. If cheap batteries are THE issue, shouldn't you have had more problems?
True, the cheapest battery today is far more powerful than the high-end batteries of even 5 years ago. However, keep in mind that motors have also grown far more powerful as well. High-powered setups that were the stuff of dreams 5 years ago are commonplace nowadays.

In a high-powered setup, it's possible that something will fail. These are imperfect devices made by imperfect humans... everything has an expiration date. Why CC gets damned when they have problems with some of their controllers - even though CC has a reputation for bending over backwards to satisfy the customers - is beyond me. Yet few complain about their cheap Turnigy battery puffing after the 3rd flight or their Suppo motors throwing a magnet on the 2nd flight... wait, what's that? You contacted Hobby King and they won't return your emails? Say that again? Hobby King wants you to pay return postage on your $15 battery, and won't help you until they've "examined" it?

I've been a Castle customer for many, many years and most of my planes - from my foamy yard flyer to my 10s 2400+ watt biplane - have Castle controllers. Am I fanboy? No, I just buy what works for me. I GLADLY pay more money for a component who's manufacturer stands behind it.

Guys, give Castle some slack. They have made things right with customers in the past, and if there's something afoot here, they will do what's necessary to satisfy their customer base.
Oct 18, 2011, 11:48 PM
iumop ap!sdn w,I
G.P.'s Avatar
I agree with both of you 100%. I have always been treated fairly by Castle, I just wish they would explain "poor quality" batteries. That's a pretty vague term, and I don't want to have the next controller that goes down in flames, taking my airframe with it.

You both brought up an excellent point about the average setup being higher powered now-a-days. That hadn't crossed my mind.
Latest blog entry: Canola Huckin'
Oct 19, 2011, 11:31 AM
WingsTiresTitsGunaGiveYaT ruble
bill clark's Avatar
heres some info. looks like 10% max but shoot for 5 or less. 3D helis are the worst because of the constant loading/unloading. I did notice CC is selling a add-on cap setup for the high stressed apps or long battery leads
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ghlight=ripple
Last edited by bill clark; Oct 19, 2011 at 11:38 AM.


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