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Jul 26, 2012, 10:16 AM
Yep I got another one.
mohillbilly's Avatar
PUG398 - do you have the Futaba version of ultimate? (1540)
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Jul 26, 2012, 04:34 PM
Registered User
what mode are you flying, + or X? when you say "ultimate" is that all axis respond faster than acro or just roll/pitch faster and the yaw is same as acro?

Personally been using Mike Barton's xx firmware for quite some time and all I have to do is dial in whatever rate I want so I lost track of which is considered "ultimate" in kk. Would be ~100 in my lcd menu
Jul 27, 2012, 02:52 PM
Once crash at a time
Bowerz's Avatar
Ok, bit of a noob here. I've tried searching but struggling to find the info. Can someone tell me a rough idea as to what P and I terms are, how they relate to the pots in the 4.7 software and a basic which pot does what exactly in the 4.7fw. I use the hobby king V3 control board. Thanks in advance
Jul 28, 2012, 04:20 AM
numnutchris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowerz View Post
Ok, bit of a noob here. I've tried searching but struggling to find the info. Can someone tell me a rough idea as to what P and I terms are, how they relate to the pots in the 4.7 software and a basic which pot does what exactly in the 4.7fw. I use the hobby king V3 control board. Thanks in advance
Use the Search this Thread tool.
Then read eg. post 2316
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2316
Jul 28, 2012, 04:58 AM
Once crash at a time
Bowerz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numnutchris View Post
Use the Search this Thread tool.
Then read eg. post 2316
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2316
I did try but didn't find much! Thanks for that, has helped a lot
Jul 29, 2012, 03:21 PM
Fly Low Fly Fast Fly Often
jjr2001's Avatar

HK KK V2.1 Motor 4 or M4 port problem


I have used two HK Multi-Rotor Control Boards Version 2.1
Both were purchased in the last 30 days. They both work the same.

Loading X-Copter 4.7 KK By Kapteninkuk. ( more times than I can count)
I have set the ESC's individually and also simultaneously through the KK board
with the Yaw pot at zero etc. The flashing process seems to end normally as I
have seen in the videos on youtube.

I seem to have two problems:

One is the initial speed of the motors seems quite fast at just a click up from
zero throttle but it may not be too fast as this is a 660mm X-copter and the
motors are not all that large. I don't have the confidence in this board's operation
yet to put the props on.


Two is the one that is really perplexing. I have worked on this for the last two days and while
reading the threads trying everything I could find. I even deleted the tmp directory in the flashtool
sub directory. Still no luck. I have read the "lazy motor 4" info but this seems much worse than a motor
that is just a little lazy. This motor stays at idle speed from 5% of throttle to 60% of throttle.

So to sum up the major problem:
Motor 4 output on either KK board does not run properly.
At 5% throttle it runs about like the other 3 motors.
You must reach 60% throttle before the speed of this motor increases, and the other
motors are already up to 50% or better.
If I were to put the props on I am sure it would end in a total crash.

Tilting the X-Copter with motors running will find that motor 4 does not change RPM.

Now, I substituted a servo for the motors at the KK board outputs.
The servo operates pretty linear on all motor ports except 4.
On port 4 it just moves from zero with 5% throttle and sits there until
you get to 60% throttle at which point it is so far behind the other motors it will never catch up.

I tested the servo on the receiver channels direct and it is very proportional to the TX stick movements.

Any ideas?
Jul 30, 2012, 02:09 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjr2001 View Post
I have used two HK Multi-Rotor Control Boards Version 2.1
Both were purchased in the last 30 days. They both work the same.

Loading X-Copter 4.7 KK By Kapteninkuk. ( more times than I can count)
I have set the ESC's individually and also simultaneously through the KK board
with the Yaw pot at zero etc. The flashing process seems to end normally as I
have seen in the videos on youtube.

I seem to have two problems:

One is the initial speed of the motors seems quite fast at just a click up from
zero throttle but it may not be too fast as this is a 660mm X-copter and the
motors are not all that large. I don't have the confidence in this board's operation
yet to put the props on.


Two is the one that is really perplexing. I have worked on this for the last two days and while
reading the threads trying everything I could find. I even deleted the tmp directory in the flashtool
sub directory. Still no luck. I have read the "lazy motor 4" info but this seems much worse than a motor
that is just a little lazy. This motor stays at idle speed from 5% of throttle to 60% of throttle.

So to sum up the major problem:
Motor 4 output on either KK board does not run properly.
At 5% throttle it runs about like the other 3 motors.
You must reach 60% throttle before the speed of this motor increases, and the other
motors are already up to 50% or better.
If I were to put the props on I am sure it would end in a total crash.

Tilting the X-Copter with motors running will find that motor 4 does not change RPM.

Now, I substituted a servo for the motors at the KK board outputs.
The servo operates pretty linear on all motor ports except 4.
On port 4 it just moves from zero with 5% throttle and sits there until
you get to 60% throttle at which point it is so far behind the other motors it will never catch up.

I tested the servo on the receiver channels direct and it is very proportional to the TX stick movements.

Any ideas?
Please read post #73: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=73

where it is written: Trim it level
Jul 30, 2012, 03:02 AM
numnutchris
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjr2001 View Post
I have used two HK Multi-Rotor Control Boards Version 2.1
Both were purchased in the last 30 days. They both work the same.

---

I seem to have two problems:

---

I tested the servo on the receiver channels direct and it is very proportional to the TX stick movements.

Any ideas?
After reading the post(s) above, returned to #73, checked gyro compensations and used your trims:
And when you do the calibration - can you then rev up?
I mean, still pot at zero and all beeps done & confirmed with thr. at min - NO PROPS - and rev up pushing the thr stick to max again?
Jul 30, 2012, 05:53 AM
Fly Low Fly Fast Fly Often
jjr2001's Avatar
[Oops, double post.......My first one ever.......LOL
Last edited by jjr2001; Jul 30, 2012 at 06:07 AM.
Jul 30, 2012, 06:05 AM
Fly Low Fly Fast Fly Often
jjr2001's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numnutchris View Post
After reading the post(s) above, returned to #73, checked gyro compensations and used your trims:
And when you do the calibration - can you then rev up?
I mean, still pot at zero and all beeps done & confirmed with thr. at min - NO PROPS - and rev up pushing the thr stick to max again?
Thanks for responding, I really want to get this board to work properly.

It will rev up with all motors smooth and low rpm from zero to full throttle if I throttle up with the pot still at zero.

Last night I downloaded the .63 beta kkMulticopter Flash Tool and the 1540 FW.
Previously I was using the 0.62 version of the tool and I had tried several versions of KK's 4.7 X-copter FW.

Here is where I found the FW: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2076

Reflashed and cranked in full "aileron" trim. At that point the test servo plugged into motor port 4 would function much the same as m1 m2 and m3. After shutting down and putting the pot back to 50% I tested again and all ports with the servo installed respond to the movement of the X-copter so it looks like it should work with the props.

Since my Futaba receiver and TX both work fine with servos plugged in on all ports does anyone have an idea why so much trim is required for the KK boards when being driven by the same receiver?

Thanks Guys.
Jul 30, 2012, 01:56 PM
KK Tri Flyer
mattcro's Avatar
Some experimenting I did a while ago after getting my KK 2.1 board suggests that the "lazy motor" issue is mainly due to the variation in KK processor clock speed. The KK board does not use a crystal oscillator, but relies instead on the AVR processor's internal oscillator which has a pretty loose tolerance - a few percent, compared to around 0.01 percent for a crystal.

Mine runs about 2% too fast, which means that the CPU calculates a value of about 1540 microseconds for pulses that are really 1500 microseconds (that standard stick center point). So, the board thinks that you are giving up elevator and right aileron input, and tries to head in that direction (towards motor 4).

I need about 20 clicks of subtrim on DX6i/AR6210 to get the standard KK firmware flying level, so you could try yours with standard firmware and lots of subtrim and you'll probably find it works OK. If it works OK with the 1540 firmware then just stick with that.
Jul 30, 2012, 03:21 PM
Fly Low Fly Fast Fly Often
jjr2001's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcro View Post
Some experimenting I did a while ago after getting my KK 2.1 board suggests that the "lazy motor" issue is mainly due to the variation in KK processor clock speed. The KK board does not use a crystal oscillator, but relies instead on the AVR processor's internal oscillator which has a pretty loose tolerance - a few percent, compared to around 0.01 percent for a crystal.

Mine runs about 2% too fast, which means that the CPU calculates a value of about 1540 microseconds for pulses that are really 1500 microseconds (that standard stick center point). So, the board thinks that you are giving up elevator and right aileron input, and tries to head in that direction (towards motor 4).

I need about 20 clicks of subtrim on DX6i/AR6210 to get the standard KK firmware flying level, so you could try yours with standard firmware and lots of subtrim and you'll probably find it works OK. If it works OK with the 1540 firmware then just stick with that.

So far so good after the flash of the 1540. I put the props on and was able to have motors at a slow rpm and trim it so that it has even thrust from all 4 motors.
Now, I have never flown a quad of any kind and have not yet given her a lot of power. What I find interesting is the wind up of control when not lifting off but almost lifting off. All of a sudden she will pitch up and flip over. I have the I-term set to 0 so I don't see how it can be integral wind up. Maybe it is "ground effect'?

I parked her for now and will practice with the sim now that I have it close to set up. I am going to need a lot of simulator before I can fly this one...LOL

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Cheers, JR
Jul 30, 2012, 03:32 PM
Registered User
The board starts off by sending esc throttle signal directly from rx with no gyro correction applied. When you reach a certain point on throttle, lets say 10%, the board starts applying gyro corrected throttle to esc. If you have a gyro reversed the quad will begin to lift because it is only controlled by tx but when point is reached where gyro kicks in it will flip all of a sudden on that axis. If you have I at zero there should be no windup so it is probably you need to reverse gyro for that axis. The 1540 firmware works just like original so roll pot to 0 turns on gyro reversing.

;---- Gyro direction reversing ----
;---- 1: Set roll gain pot to zero.
;---- 2: Turn on flight controller.
;---- 3: LED flashes 3 times.
;---- 4: Move the stick for the gyro you want to reverse.
;---- 5: LED will blink continually.
;---- 6: Turn off flight controller.
;---- 7: If there is more gyros to be reversed, goto step 2, else set roll gain pot back.
Last edited by pug398; Jul 30, 2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: changed to roll pot should = 0
Jul 30, 2012, 04:39 PM
Fly Low Fly Fast Fly Often
jjr2001's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pug398 View Post
The board starts off by sending esc throttle signal directly from rx with no gyro correction applied. When you reach a certain point on throttle, lets say 10%, the board starts applying gyro corrected throttle to esc. If you have a gyro reversed the quad will begin to lift because it is only controlled by tx but when point is reached where gyro kicks in it will flip all of a sudden on that axis. If you have I at zero there should be no windup so it is probably you need to reverse gyro for that axis. The 1540 firmware works just like original so roll pot>0 turns on gyro reversing.

;---- Gyro direction reversing ----
;---- 1: Set roll gain pot to zero.
;---- 2: Turn on flight controller.
;---- 3: LED flashes 3 times.
;---- 4: Move the stick for the gyro you want to reverse.
;---- 5: LED will blink continually.
;---- 6: Turn off flight controller.
;---- 7: If there is more gyros to be reversed, goto step 2, else set roll gain pot back.
Thank you, I think you just saved my X-copter.....I never did think the motors responded quite right when I had the tape on the shafts testing it. It is hard to tell which motor is revving up while tilting the copter. I think I will try to go through that again. This time I will do it one motor at a time so I can see the gyro action without a doubt.

Thanks again, JR
Jul 31, 2012, 05:19 AM
numnutchris
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcro View Post
Some experimenting I did a while ago after getting my KK 2.1 board suggests that the "lazy motor" issue is mainly due to the variation in KK processor clock speed. The KK board does not use a crystal oscillator, but relies instead on the AVR processor's internal oscillator which has a pretty loose tolerance - a few percent, compared to around 0.01 percent for a crystal.

Mine runs about 2% too fast, which means that the CPU calculates a value of about 1540 microseconds for pulses that are really 1500 microseconds (that standard stick center point). So, the board thinks that you are giving up elevator and right aileron input, and tries to head in that direction (towards motor 4).

I need about 20 clicks of subtrim on DX6i/AR6210 to get the standard KK firmware flying level, so you could try yours with standard firmware and lots of subtrim and you'll probably find it works OK. If it works OK with the 1540 firmware then just stick with that.
Believe youre spot on, Ive checked the outputs as I wondered why it had to be trimmed a few clicks thus it was trimmed level last time. Seems the output signal can change a percent or so if eg. the temperature changes - fly on a cloudy day vs. sunny. Adding a cheap Rx the variation gets a bit larger, using original Rx it stays small, only a few clicks on the trims.

Btw Ive setup a few boards by now and use a somewhat stupid way for initial trim - put on some small props, barely enough to lift the multirotor, and rev up with it in my hand (and yes, eye protection on). Beware of large props and holding a multirotor, if it flips, it happens fast...


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