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May 19, 2011, 06:22 PM
Registered User
Discussion

Economic benefit of taxpayer funded scientific research


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

This is an analysis of how much was added to the US economy by an investment in genomic research. I think the general thrust of the article is true, but I have no idea how solid their numbers are. Can one extend the argument to conclude that funding, in addition to genomic research, of a broad range of research will have similar positive economic results?
May 19, 2011, 06:59 PM
Tu ne cede malis
MtnGoat's Avatar
Where are the analysis of the results of using this capital where the market actually wanted it, instead of the place it was directed?

Yes, money used where the market didn't want it did something. But the opportunity cost is unseen and unknown.
May 19, 2011, 07:03 PM
Bagpipes spoken here
Pipemajor's Avatar
A LOT of research done in the private sector was/is accomplished via federal dollars. In addition, look at the technology transfer which regularly occurs from federal to private research centers.

Hey... I used to work at one of those.
May 20, 2011, 01:27 AM
We want... Information!
Bruce Abbott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
Where are the analysis of the results of using this capital where the market actually wanted it,
'The market' doesn't want anything except money. People want new and better stuff, but they won't get it (or even know that they can have it) unless somebody creates it. If left to 'the market' you are more likely to get variations on existing products (eg. cheaper Viagra, toad genes in tomatoes) than ground-breaking research.

Quote:
Yes, money used where the market didn't want it did something. But the opportunity cost is unseen and unknown.
That $3.8 billion could have been spent on any number of other things. But the opportunity cost of them would be not getting the human genome sequenced.

Mapping the human genome was clearly a desirable goal. However it seems that the benefits were underestimated, so it's doubtful that it have happened if left solely to private enterprises. They probably would have preferred to spend their money on other things which provided more short-term profits, but left us poorer in the long run.
A private company, Celera Corp., undertook a parallel effort.... But several key benefits—such as drugs tailored to a specific patient's DNA—have been slow to materialize.
The problem with expecting a private company to do stuff like this is that returns may not come soon enough, or be profitable enough, to carry it through the expensive research and development stage. Private companies may also be less efficient due to their competitive nature. Several firms may be involved in the same research, but if each one is doing the same work and not sharing information then the result is duplication of resources and wasted effort.

This is where the government can step in. It has no short-term profit needs or rival firms to worry about, so it can coordinate the efforts of its own agencies and/or private firms, to produce results faster and more efficiently.

The only danger is that the government may be doing the wrong research - but that's why we (hopefully) elect smart people with vision, who will do the right thing. But even if it doesn't always work out well as we hope, it's still better than relying on a brainless anarchistic 'market' whose only guiding force is profit.
May 20, 2011, 05:59 AM
Out of Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott
'The market' doesn't want anything except money. People want new and better stuff, but they won't get it (or even know that they can have it) unless somebody creates it. If left to 'the market' you are more likely to get variations on existing products (eg. cheaper Viagra, toad genes in tomatoes) than ground-breaking research.
Wow. Completely backwards, a result I suspect of the crap that the last few generations have been taught in the US progressive school system.

Fortunately, progressivism doesn't always get a foothold with the kids who actually do some thinking on their own:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/429901...her-said-what/


When the girl in the video says "I didn't notice anything", that says it all about how young kids are fed propoganda from the get-go so that they don't get any other information other than the Socialist crap that the system wants to feed them.
May 20, 2011, 06:06 AM
LcJ
LcJ
Forever TMWT Pilot #11
LcJ's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott
.....
This is where the government can step in. It has no short-term profit needs or rival firms to worry about, so it can coordinate the efforts of its own agencies and/or private firms, to produce results faster and more efficiently.

The only danger is that the government may be doing the wrong research - but that's why we (hopefully) elect smart people with vision, who will do the right thing. But even if it doesn't always work out well as we hope, it's still better than relying on a brainless anarchistic 'market' whose only guiding force is profit.
......and this efficiency of government is how we got 14+ Trillion dollars in debt and are running a 1.5+ Trillion dollar deficit and are borrowing approximately 40 cents of every dollar we spend?
Latest blog entry: RC Logger's Eye One Xtreme Quad
May 20, 2011, 06:26 AM
Registered User
saltyzoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

This is where the government can step in. It has no short-term profit needs or rival firms to worry about, so it can coordinate the efforts of its own agencies and/or private firms, to produce results faster and more efficiently.
Because, as we all know, having no short term goals or accountability is the best way to efficient results. Lol your statement is beyond logic or reason. It's completely irrational.
May 20, 2011, 07:39 AM
We want... Information!
Bruce Abbott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
Wow. Completely backwards, a result I suspect of the crap that the last few generations have been taught in the US progressive school system.
I have no idea what's taught in the US 'progressive school system', so I doubt that it had any effect on me. But perhaps you meant something else?

Here's what I would really like to see happen in the US:-

1. Kill the FED and go back on the gold standard.
2. Let the banks fail. No bailouts. Don't increase the debt ceiling.
3. Close your borders.
4. Privatize the school system.
5. Lower taxes. Flat tax rate. No tax on interest, dividends, or corporate profits.
6. Cut out all those entitlements. Kill Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare, SS.
7. Reduce the size of your government (the smaller the better). No government sponsored research. Kill NASA, USPS, AMtrak etc.
8 No minimum wage. Make unions illegal.
9. Remove all barriers to the free market (duties, subsidies, restrictions, trade agreements, copyright, patents, government regulations etc.).
10. Get your butts out of other countries!

Can you imagine how awesome that would be?
May 20, 2011, 12:51 PM
Really?
dll932's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by saltyzoo
Because, as we all know, having no short term goals or accountability is the best way to efficient results. Lol your statement is beyond logic or reason. It's completely irrational.
If not for DARPA, we wouldn't have the net, this site, billions in commerce...
May 20, 2011, 01:16 PM
Old Timer
California Condor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott
I have no idea what's taught in the US 'progressive school system', so I doubt that it had any effect on me. But perhaps you meant something else?

Here's what I would really like to see happen in the US:-

1. Kill the FED and go back on the gold standard.
2. Let the banks fail. No bailouts. Don't increase the debt ceiling.
3. Close your borders.
4. Privatize the school system.
5. Lower taxes. Flat tax rate. No tax on interest, dividends, or corporate profits.
6. Cut out all those entitlements. Kill Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare, SS.
7. Reduce the size of your government (the smaller the better). No government sponsored research. Kill NASA, USPS, AMtrak etc.
8 No minimum wage. Make unions illegal.
9. Remove all barriers to the free market (duties, subsidies, restrictions, trade agreements, copyright, patents, government regulations etc.).
10. Get your butts out of other countries!

Can you imagine how awesome that would be?
Me too.
Great post! May be the best of the decade.
May 20, 2011, 01:21 PM
LcJ
LcJ
Forever TMWT Pilot #11
LcJ's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by California Condor
Me too.
Great post! May be the best of the decade.
Too bad he didn't realize it!
Latest blog entry: RC Logger's Eye One Xtreme Quad
May 20, 2011, 01:25 PM
Registered User
Buran's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcj
too bad he didn't realize it!
Nice
May 20, 2011, 01:30 PM
Figure Nine Champ
madsci_guy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dll932
If not for DARPA, we wouldn't have the net, this site, billions in commerce...
Probably not true. The Internet undoubtedly would have been delayed, but IMO, not by more than 5 years. A lot of universities and companies, were putting non-government and NSF money into creating the net. The IPSS was created in the UK. BBS's were very prevalent in the early 80's, and so I think that it would have hapened even without DARPA, just more slowly.

Madsci -- A former ARPANET user.
May 20, 2011, 01:35 PM
..teach monkeys to fly..
Marten's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dll932
If not for DARPA, we wouldn't have the net, this site, billions in commerce...
Naah. that was Al Gore.
May 20, 2011, 01:43 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
RumRunner_1492's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott
'The market' doesn't want anything except money. People want new and better stuff, but they won't get it (or even know that they can have it) unless somebody creates it. If left to 'the market' you are more likely to get variations on existing products (eg. cheaper Viagra, toad genes in tomatoes) than ground-breaking research.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Competition and a free market drives innovation unlike anthing else in the world and at a faster pace. Government research is good on somethings but not for a lot of innovation. The free market is much, much better than the government at innovation.

You are right about one thing. The market wants money. That is what drives the innovation. If a company stands still it will be left behind. If it innovates and creates it will flourish.


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