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Apr 03, 2017, 09:53 AM
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goofyfoot2001's Avatar
I would think that would be a fairly easy affair. I think you could do that on a simple arduino or even on redundant arduinos. I monitor my batteries now so. I'll certainly build a scale model first.
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Apr 21, 2019, 08:20 AM
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Dale Kramer honored


Lazair Stamp Unveiling (6 min 43 sec)


Congratulations!
Apr 25, 2019, 09:33 PM
Registered User
Dale:

When you look at the Average Part 103 Ultralight today, they Cost around $15,000 and are not Selling as well as they should, mainly account of Poor Marketing, and the Top two that come to mind is the Aerolite 103 in 2nd place, and the Phoenix 103 in 1st place which has the Highest Useful Load of 396 lbs. We know the Lazair took off marginally on 11hp, better with the (2) 9.4 [email protected], Rotax 185's and with 5 Gallons could Fly for 2 hrs. Today 2019, Hirth Sells the F-36, 2 Stroke, rated at 15 [email protected] with a Muffler. With a Modern Tuned Pipe you could make even more 20-40% HP at same rpm, or use a Lower 5000 rpm and still make more 20-40% HP.

F-36 with Recoil Start $1963.00
F-36 with Recoil Start & Re-Drive $2364.00
F-36 with Electric start & Re-Drive $2964.00

Now today 2019, you can Buy a Honda or 20+ different Clones from different manufacturers. A $99 when on Sale from Harbor Freight a Predator 212cc is rated [email protected] With a few cheap Bolt on Mods (Bigger Carb, Tuned Exhaust, K&N Air Filter, maybe a CR Bump) it can make [email protected]

The Harbor Freight, not larger in Size Predator 420cc is Stock [email protected] and Cost $360. A 420cc with all the Mods, 34mm Carb, K&N, Tuned Exhaust, CR Bump made Max [email protected], it was making [email protected], was still making [email protected]

The Best Bang for your dollar is an [email protected] 440cc Duromax with Electric Start for $289.00 off eBay or Amazon. 77 lbs Dry Weight and can be lightened with aftermarket Racing parts, like a Billet Aluminium Flywheel.
https://www.duromaxpower.com/product...c-start-engine

High Rpm = HP & Noise.

People need/want a Lazair Quick Build kit with a Low-Cost 212cc to 420cc Honda Type Engine with a Cheap Belt Drive something like from Ace Aviation. The Duromax 212cc is rated [email protected] Dry Weight 46lbs. Can be lightened with aftermarket Billet Flywheel, etc.
https://www.aceaviation.co.uk/redrives

As much as I, and You, and these other people would like a Quieter Electric Lazair, the Batteries & Motors just Cost too much, take to Long to Charge, to give you a Profit Range. Maybe, making the Wing Skin out of that Flexible Solar Panel stuff may Help Boost your Flight Time and Shorten Recharge Time but also Cost more $$$. If it can't Compete in the $15,000 Gas Powered Part 103 Ultralights that can Fly for up to 2hrs, you won't have many Sales. People like 4 Strokes more than 2 Strokes.

Just a few Sources for Honda/Clone Racing Engine HD parts. Some have Dyno Sheets of their Engines.

http://www.nrracing.com/category-s/2138.htm

https://www.arcracing.com/gx390/

https://www.bullfrogperformanceproducts.com/


Rich Gillen
Last edited by Armilite; Apr 26, 2019 at 12:29 PM.
Apr 26, 2019, 02:28 PM
Registered User
g00bd0g's Avatar
@armilite

Anyone looking to fly "as cheap as possible" should not be flying. There are certain areas in aircraft that require significant investment. If you can't afford the investment, you should choose a different sport/hobby.

I would never risk my life with a Harbor Freight motor. Even "quality" small 2 strokes and 4 strokes are notoriously unreliable.

Well engineered electric power-trains are orders of magnitude more reliable and safer. Beyond that, the reduced fuel and service costs are very real and pay for the initial price difference easily.

I fly an electric ultralight, the E-Gull. I have over ~$15,000 in the power-train alone. But it will give me ~2000 hours of trouble free, cost free service. Any roughly comparable ICE engine would cost much more per hour over that lifespan. Just the fuel at 2gal/hr would be... 2gal x 2000 hours x $4/hr = $16,000 dollars. That doesn't include initial costs, oil, service, overhauls, etc...

And I'm not even going to go into the quietness and green aspects of electric systems...

If you're going to fly lots of hours, electric makes huge financial sense, even if you won't fly enough hours to realize the financial benefits, the safety and ease of use are very real and easily worth the cost, assuming you value your life as much as I do.

I also have a lazair in the process of being converted to electric, just lack the time...

I have tons of videos on my youtube if you are interested in the E-Gull
E-Gull 2nd flight! Wally's 1st electric flight! 2-24-2019 (1 min 36 sec)
May 19, 2019, 07:52 PM
Just trying to get a nut.
scrtsqrl's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00bd0g
@armilite

Anyone looking to fly "as cheap as possible" should not be flying. There are certain areas in aircraft that require significant investment. If you can't afford the investment, you should choose a different sport/hobby.

I would never risk my life with a Harbor Freight motor. Even "quality" small 2 strokes and 4 strokes are notoriously unreliable.

Well engineered electric power-trains are orders of magnitude more reliable and safer. Beyond that, the reduced fuel and service costs are very real and pay for the initial price difference easily.

I fly an electric ultralight, the E-Gull. I have over ~$15,000 in the power-train alone. But it will give me ~2000 hours of trouble free, cost free service. Any roughly comparable ICE engine would cost much more per hour over that lifespan. Just the fuel at 2gal/hr would be... 2gal x 2000 hours x $4/hr = $16,000 dollars. That doesn't include initial costs, oil, service, overhauls, etc...

And I'm not even going to go into the quietness and green aspects of electric systems...

If you're going to fly lots of hours, electric makes huge financial sense, even if you won't fly enough hours to realize the financial benefits, the safety and ease of use are very real and easily worth the cost, assuming you value your life as much as I do.

I also have a lazair in the process of being converted to electric, just lack the time...

I have tons of videos on my youtube if you are interested in the E-Gull
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfOvA4ROpU

Is your E-Gull an EAB? Did you build it at home or at the "factory"?
Did you wind up using the ZERO power system?
What motor? Joby?



EDIT: Found this video. Answers my questions:
E-Gull intro video (9 min 24 sec)


Did you convert it or was it built from scratch as an E-Plane?

Thanks!
Last edited by scrtsqrl; May 19, 2019 at 08:27 PM.
Jun 30, 2019, 04:53 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloOne
Dennis,

It wasn't just here, it was the after response from 2nd Oshkosh visit and more.

It wasn't like 1979 when people were throwing money at me Times change.

To put the eLazair into production nowadays would likely require hundreds of thousands. I do not want to shoestring it again.

I think those levels would be hard in a KS campaign.

I thought I would test KS with a small campaign and with a new design. Not much luck with it so far.

Thanks for kind comments.

Dale
=======================================

I'm still Reading this Thread, but I say B.S. Dale. You already have the Proven Airframe Design, Drawings to Build it, You already have a 2 Stroke Version you could be Selling to raise Money to finance your Electric version. The Rotax 185 may not be Available for Airplane use today, but it's still made for Water Pumps even upgraded to CDI and Nikisil Cylinder. There are many Alternative New 2 Strokes to replace the 185UL, a Hirth 15hp, a JLO L-252, an RMZ-250, Compact Radial Engines makes many Small 2 Strokes, Simonini makes many Small 2 Strokes and there are many Honda Clone 4 Strokes out there. The Tools to Build these Airframes, you should already have, but New they're under $3000. A Chop Saw $150 or a Cheap Table Saw with one of those New metal Blades $400, a Press Brake $350, a Tig Welder $1000, a cheap Drill Press $150, other Cheap Basic Hand Tools, a JD2 Model 3 Tube Bender & Dies $1000. Even a Cheap CNC Plasma Cutter Table $2500. A New 40' x 60' Morton Building isn't that Expensive and would work to Manufacture this Ultralight. There are many Empty Closed up Business, many in Foreclosure, etc., Cheap around the US. I just looked at an Acreage Property with a 40' x 60' Morton Building, room for a Grass Air Strip that the guy bought off a Sheriffs Sale for $1,497, he was asking $60,000, it needed to be Cleaned up and about $40,000 in Improvements to get it to my Standards, but he Sold it soon after for $38,500. The Property once Improved was worth 200K+ in the middle of Iowa.

It's not Rocket Science to make these Airframe Parts. If you put the Parts into CAD, you can even farm out some of the Work to other Starving Metal Shops. While I like the Concept of Electric, it just isn't feasible yet. Your Building a PART 103 Aircraft, that means CHEAP, under $16,000. The Cheapest Motors today are these Honda Clones. Many HD Racing parts made for these Motors. You can Buy a Harbor Freight Predator 212cc Engine when on Sale for $99 and with a few Upgrades less than $400, and can make 15hp. That's $600 per Engine. A Simple Belt Reduction can be made for under $400.

You have some Weight to play with, a Duromax 440 is [email protected] and costs $289 with Electric Start.

Your Competitors, the #1 Phoniex 103 with a 50hp Hirth and #2 Aerolite 103 with a Hirth 28hp are Selling for $15,500. Both of these have way more Useful Load than the Lazair.

Now would you go spend $25,000+ for a Tube & Fabric Ultralight when you can Buy many Good used Eurcoupes, Piper Tomahawk, Cessna 150/152, other Kitplanes, etc., for less?
Jun 30, 2019, 05:39 AM
BabyBootLegger
sunworksco's Avatar

Not feasible?


It is feasible!
Did you know that there are many wrecked electric cars out there, waiting to be scavenged for drivetrains and batteries! Itís very feasible to build on the cheap, now. And lots of the controllers have been hacked for other applications.
The great thing about electric driven props is the low rpms and lower amperage demands, compared to electric cars. Plus the overhead costs are so cheap, compared to IC driven aircraft.
Also the biggest advancements in battery development are coming soon, the inexpensive solid state batteries. They use cheap materials and no liquid electrolytes. The do not over heat and catch on fire. They do not need complicated battery management systems, as well. The future is coming at us very fast. Dr. Goodenough, that designed the lithium ion battery for NASA has made a huge breakthrough in solid state batteries. The have more energy density and are less expensive. They will last over 500,000 miles in a car and twice as long in an aircraft. The brushless motors will last over a million miles in a car and longer in aircraft. Itís all coming at you fast and much less overhead to operate. Itís already proven a winner in student pilot aircraft. The solid state batteries can quick-charge in less than 15 minutes and do not degrade. This is a big deal! The science is out there and there is not denying this....
Jun 30, 2019, 07:23 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00bd0g
@armilite

Anyone looking to fly "as cheap as possible" should not be flying. There are certain areas in aircraft that require significant investment. If you can't afford the investment, you should choose a different sport/hobby.

I would never risk my life with a Harbor Freight motor. Even "quality" small 2 strokes and 4 strokes are notoriously unreliable.

Well engineered electric power-trains are orders of magnitude more reliable and safer. Beyond that, the reduced fuel and service costs are very real and pay for the initial price difference easily.

I fly an electric ultralight, the E-Gull. I have over ~$15,000 in the power-train alone. But it will give me ~2000 hours of trouble free, cost free service. Any roughly comparable ICE engine would cost much more per hour over that lifespan. Just the fuel at 2gal/hr would be... 2gal x 2000 hours x $4/hr = $16,000 dollars. That doesn't include initial costs, oil, service, overhauls, etc...

And I'm not even going to go into the quietness and green aspects of electric systems...

If you're going to fly lots of hours, electric makes huge financial sense, even if you won't fly enough hours to realize the financial benefits, the safety and ease of use are very real and easily worth the cost, assuming you value your life as much as I do.

I also have a lazair in the process of being converted to electric, just lack the time...

I have tons of videos on my youtube if you are interested in the E-Gull
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfOvA4ROpU
================================================== ===================
Most USA Part 103 Ultralights only need 18hp to 35hp Max!

IF, you're in Business to make Money, such as making Ultralights, you want to make as many Sales ($$$$) since the Profit Margin is Small per Plane, so You have to understand the World Market and what your Competitors are Charing. There are about 8 Billion People now in this World, and the Average Meridian Wage is 15hr. Not many Millionaires and Billionaires who Fly Ultralights. At 40hrs a week at $15hr that's $31,200 a Year.

Each Country has it's own Flight Rules and many don't have our Stupid 254 Weight Restrictions. There are only about 225 Countries to canvas to Target which ones his Plane may Sell better in. Since everything from, Cars, Homes, Boats, Food, Bikes, ATV, Snowmobiles, Guns, Trucks, Campers, etc., has doubled or tripled in the last 15 years, People don't have as much Spendable Income for these Fun Toys. So they Shop Smarter today.

Since we're talking USA Part 103 Rules here and it seems the FAA is saying these Batteries have to be Included in the Empty Weight, it looks like from his Post he got Max: 40 min with that Setup, vs with the Rotax 185's 2hrs. With these 4 Stoke Honda Clones, it may do better. Hmmm, what does the World want 40 min or 2 hrs? Hmmm, what does the World want a $16,000 Ultralight or a $25,000 Ultralight?

Flying doesn't have to be expensive. Most Ultralights and Kitplanes have either been Built from Plans or Kits.

Only Rich People Pay more than they should for products, account most don't know the Value of Hard Days Work to earn it, many inherited it. Now I was making about $150,000 when I retired 2 years ago. But I don't waste my Money on Overpriced Products.

You are Speculating you're going to get 2000hrs. How many Electric Ultralights have even 500hrs on them, 1000hrs on them, 1500hrs? Dale had a few hiccups on his install. Gas here in the USA is not $4, I just bought 91 Octane today $2.28. Those $15,500 Avg Price for Part 103 Gas Ultralights includes the Engine.

They aren't as Quiet as most People think they are. You're not Going Green, a Power Plant has to make the Electric or you have to use Generators which also Cost more $$$.

You have $10,000+ to Account for just the Plane, plus Chargers & Drop Cords & Generator, etc. Very few Business give things away for Free, you get 5-20 Electric Planes wanting the Charge Up a Day, and these businesses will soon be Charging a Fee and it won't be a Dollar.

The Original Lazair with Rotax 185's has a Low Useful Load.
Empty weight: 210 lb (95 kg)
Useful load: 240 lb (109 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 450 lb (204 kg)

So when you add these Electric Motors and Batteries that probably takes it up to Max 254 lbs to get some Flight Time, 40 min to a 1hr Max maybe. 450 lbs - 254 lbs = 196 lbs, minus the Weight of any Drop Cords, Chargers, GPS, Cell Phone or Tablet, Lunch, Fishing Pole, etc. You're losing even more Customers.

#1 Phoenix 103 has a 396 lbs Useful Load.
#2 Aerolite 103 has a 366 lbs Useful Load.

A Gas Ultralight can Fly 60-85+ Miles on 5 Gallons. Around me, I Avg 21 Airports in a 50-mile Radius out to 200 miles. With the proper planning, you can go many places in a Par t103 Ultralight. Do I, and other people want to spend 2-1/2+hrs waiting for Batteries to Recharge, NO? Is the Wife going to follow me with a Generator, NO?

The Lazair has Huge Wings, I would cover them with that Flexible Solar Panel Stuff the military is using. I believe Iowa Thin Film makes it.

You, as well as many other people, don't understand Engines, especially 2 Strokes. 99% of all Engine Failures is from Humans. I can Rebuild a Rotax Single for less than $250. I'm Building a JLO L372 372.3cc Single right now. I got less than $300 total in Motor and all the New Parts so far. I just have to get a Starter and a Carb for it. An ACE Belt Drive converted for it is $669. While I have never had a Rotax 185UL, I do have multiple 277's, 377's, 503's, a 521, a 617, multiple 670's, and many Skidoo/Rotax Singles, 250, 292, 299, 335, 340. I got (5) Snowmobiles with 2 Strokes and a T-Bird I with a 503UL also. No Failures in my 62 Years.

Try to Sell that Electric Ultralight 7-8 Years down the Road that needs New Batteries at $5000+.

Electric Motor with a Prop isn't as Quiet as many people think.

I believe a 32 x 10 at 5000rpm was the Popular Prop Setup. Makes 70.28 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 8.904 hp.

32 x 20 (2) Blade at 77F at 5000rpm = 70.28 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 17.80 hp.
32 x 20 (2) Blade at 77F at 4500rpm = 56.93 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 12.98 hp.
32 x 20 (2) Blade at 77F at 4000rpm = 44.98 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 9.118 hp.
32 x 20 (2) Blade at 77F at 3500rpm = 34.44 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 6.108 hp.
32 x 20 (2) Blade at 77F at 3000rpm = 25.30 lbs Static Thrust. Needs 3.846 hp.
http://godolloairport.hu/calc/strc_eng/index.htm

That's WHY you Upgrade these Small Industrial 4 Strokes to make them more Durable and for turning them from 3600rpm to 5000rpm for more HP.
1. Disable the Governor and Low Oil Sensor. Your Time 30-40min.
2. Put on a Bigger Mikuni Flat Side Carb. $40 ebay
3. Add a Hi Rev kit. ( Stiffer Valve Springs for 5000rpm, Chrome Moly Push Rods, HD Valve Locks and Keepers) $90
4. Use a Billet Aluminum Rod. $125
5. Use a Billet Aluminum Flywheel. $160
6. Use a better K&N Type Air Filter. $25
7. Use a Tuned Exhaust Header $40

For even more HP, use a better CAM $60, use Bigger Valves $40, raise the Compression.

If Dale and these other People who have these Rotax 185's, Solo 210's and other 2 Strokes, would learn how to Build a 2 Stoke Engine they can make a lot more HP. The 185UL used a low 8.0 CR, a Small Carb, with just a Muffler.

Compare that to a 277UL, 11.8cr, 36mm Bing 54 Carb, with a Muffler also. Rated [email protected], but actually Dynoed [email protected] With just an R&D Aero Mild Tuned Pipe it Dynoed [email protected] A 2 Stroke using 11.5cr with proper Size Carb, with a Good Wide Band Tuned Pipe Designed for 6500rpm it should take 7cc to make 1hp. A 185UL 184cc/7cc = 26.2hp, a 277UL 268cc/7cc = 38.2hp.

A New JLO L-152 Sold New for Garden Tillers, etc., $400, 152cc/7cc = [email protected] Probably [email protected] with a Muffler. I believe they also still make the L252.
Jun 30, 2019, 11:35 PM
Registered User
g00bd0g's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armilite
================================================== ===================
Most USA Part 103 Ultralights only need 18hp to 35hp Max!
You make very good points all around. But I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

1st, I think you are overestimating the new ultralight market. It is just barely more than zero. Mark Bierle who designs/builds the Thundergulls hardly makes any new aircraft because the used market undercuts his prices so severely. Why buy a new kit airframe for $20k when you can buy a complete running used aircraft for 1/2 that? Same applies to basically every ultralight model I am aware of.

You go on to say how much cheaper gas operation is, but you don't really substantiate it. Work the numbers for even 1000 hours and I think you'll be surprised.

Then you go on to say gas can be very safe but "You, as well as many other people, don't understand Engines, especially 2 Strokes. 99% of all Engine Failures is from Humans." I don't disagree at all, but since we can't make humans smarter, we must provide safer aircraft. Electric powertrains are certainly a path to safer aircraft. I think it's safe to say that a properly engineered electric system will be orders of magnitude safer than a small ICE.

I understand the initial purchase price is higher, but if the total cost (aircraft+fuel+maintenance) per hour of operation is similar, isn't the increase safety and ease of use worth it? Even if the value proposition is not quite there for you yet, it is for many of us, and it will only get better from here.


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