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Nov 17, 2019, 02:05 AM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
brokenenglish's Avatar
Jean Magne was only beaten by a tiny margin in the W/C at 78 y.o. and was still flying top level speed at 80 y.o.
But one obvious point from Johnny's great post is that he's talking B speed, and the loads and forces are a lot greater than in A speed (F2A). Not to mention C speed of course!
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Nov 17, 2019, 10:17 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Carl Dodge was 72 years old when he won F2A at the W/C in Poland
Carl is still flying last I heard. I quit the F2A Speed in 1980 because I could not run fast enough in the pylon. No problem out of it. Then line length was raise from 52 ft. to 60. I could have maybe done that for a while. Now the speeds have gone up again, so lap speeds are the same as before. I am much older now too. At the US Nats, there are only a few guys that actually fly. They are the younger ones. Like 60 years old?
Nov 17, 2019, 11:07 AM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 50+AirYears
Sounds like CL speed has about reached the limits of HUMAN PHYSICAL capabi;ities, not engine, fuel, or materials limits.
My comments were relative to the 1978 time frame. All the actions we proposed then were eventually adopted. Bigger lines, longer lines, 10% fuel restriction. Therefore, the speeds and line pull are at dramatically reduced. Additionally, there was a rule to allow someone else to fly your model. This provided a way for aging modelers to still be active in control line speed. It is after all an engine building competition.

Johnny
Nov 17, 2019, 11:09 AM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Carl Dodge was 72 years old when he won F2A at the W/C in Poland
I think that is correct. Carl is an exceptional modeler. He is also one of the nicest people you will meet.

Johnny
Nov 17, 2019, 11:34 AM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenenglish
Jean Magne was only beaten by a tiny margin in the W/C at 78 y.o. and was still flying top level speed at 80 y.o.
But one obvious point from Johnny's great post is that he's talking B speed, and the loads and forces are a lot greater than in A speed (F2A). Not to mention C speed of course!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspeed
Carl is still flying last I heard. I quit the F2A Speed in 1980 because I could not run fast enough in the pylon. No problem out of it. Then line length was raise from 52 ft. to 60. I could have maybe done that for a while. Now the speeds have gone up again, so lap speeds are the same as before. I am much older now too. At the US Nats, there are only a few guys that actually fly. They are the younger ones. Like 60 years old?
You both have great observations. The events are completely different. The same weekend I set the B record (5cc) at 200 MPH Dub set the A record (2.5cc) at 180 MPH. Both were on 60 foot lines as the lines for A speed had been lengthened. The B ship made 7 laps in 9 seconds and pulled over 70 pounds. Dub's A ship made the same 7 laps in 8.1 seconds with a very manageable line pull because the airplane is lighter and the line pull is reduced by the ratio of the speed squared.

It seems the reaction to problems is addressed much faster by the FAI. Think monoline, tetra, nitro. Your observation of participation in speed at the Nats is correct. It is a dwindling and aging crowd. But, things always change!

Johnny
Nov 17, 2019, 01:38 PM
Dieselized User
gkamysz's Avatar
I saw Carl Dodge fly in August. IIRC he is 80.
Nov 17, 2019, 03:24 PM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
brokenenglish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkamysz
I saw Carl Dodge fly in August. IIRC he is 80.
Great photo! Thanks!
Nov 17, 2019, 05:55 PM
Registered User
These guys are active and competitive too, so good to see these pics, 2 legends!
Nov 17, 2019, 07:22 PM
Registered User
downunder's Avatar
Just for interest's sake, for those who've never seen F2A speed and a world record being set, this is Paul Eisner back in 2001 using a Hallam Irvine 15. It shows nicely the whipping needed to get the engine running fast enough for the pipe to start to come on song and then how the handle has to be locked into the pylon before timing of the flight begins.

F2A World Record - Control-line model aircraft speed. (1 min 53 sec)
Nov 17, 2019, 09:32 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnshannon
You both have great observations. The events are completely different. The same weekend I set the B record (5cc) at 200 MPH Dub set the A record (2.5cc) at 180 MPH. Both were on 60 foot lines as the lines for A speed had been lengthened. The B ship made 7 laps in 9 seconds and pulled over 70 pounds. Dub's A ship made the same 7 laps in 8.1 seconds with a very manageable line pull because the airplane is lighter and the line pull is reduced by the ratio of the speed squared.

It seems the reaction to problems is addressed much faster by the FAI. Think monoline, tetra, nitro. Your observation of participation in speed at the Nats is correct. It is a dwindling and aging crowd. But, things always change!

Johnny
hi ,could you enlighten me please .if both models on 60 ft lines and did seven {7} laps ,would not 8.1 seconds[180mph] be faster than 9 seconds [200mph}!
Nov 17, 2019, 10:05 PM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by condo
hi ,could you enlighten me please .if both models on 60 ft lines and did seven {7} laps ,would not 8.1 seconds[180mph] be faster than 9 seconds [200mph}!
Condo,

You are right! I should not do math in public. 200 MPH is 7 laps in 9 seconds. 180 MPH is 7 laps in 10 seconds. A 200 flight is getting your ass around the pylon every 1.3 seconds. The video clip flight is 1.2 seconds per lap. I never had any trouble getting around the pylon. I simply gripped the handle and yoke together and pulled myself right up against the pylon to go the shortest distance. The difference is the line pull. The tank system we used would stage and go to full speed in 1.5 laps at which time I dropped into the pylon yoke. I always stood in the exact same spot from the pylon on release and took the exact same steps on every flight. I practiced this over and over until it was a dance move I could do with my eyes closed. The engine staged up while still in the dolly at 1/4 lap. In air at 1/2 lap. As soon as the dolly dropped (slung at about 100 MPH actually) I fed in full down and looked at the pylon yoke over my shoulder to make a perfect drop in going to neutral on control at the same time. At 200 MPH on the 60 foot line the line pull is so great control inputs have no effect. BTW, at 205 I was only good (mentally and physically) for 5 total flights a day.

Johnny
Nov 18, 2019, 01:59 AM
Registered User
Thanks ,thats interesting ,the sort in formation not usually disseminated. Can you clarify why You say the line pull was such a physical chore ? Given you were hooked in the pylon yoke ..wouldnt the yoke and pylon take the weight of the rotating model..I never flown anything fast however i know from other hobbies once the driver/rider etc gets behind the speed of their equipment disaster usually follows.
condo

i realise that running fast around the pylon pole is hard work looking at the video, but most the flight looks like little weight on pilots arm , from your racers perspective what i missing ..
Last edited by condo; Nov 18, 2019 at 02:04 AM.
Nov 18, 2019, 10:36 AM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by condo
Thanks ,thats interesting ,the sort in formation not usually disseminated. Can you clarify why You say the line pull was such a physical chore ? Given you were hooked in the pylon yoke ..wouldnt the yoke and pylon take the weight of the rotating model..I never flown anything fast however i know from other hobbies once the driver/rider etc gets behind the speed of their equipment disaster usually follows.
condo

i realise that running fast around the pylon pole is hard work looking at the video, but most the flight looks like little weight on pilots arm , from your racers perspective what i missing ..
Condo,

I guess part of the reason is I never took off in the pylon. Dub did this very well (only on the B ship). I was always very careful to launch his airplane straight ahead and with the line nice and tight. The problem would be if the line ever got any slack for some reason you can not take a step back. My standard procedure was to stand 1 1/2 steps from the pylon at launch and take a step back no matter what. That then put me right next to the pylon. Why not just hold on to the pylon with your free hand you might ask. Well, this is monoline so there is no free hand. You have both hands on the control unit. One holding the handle grip and the other on the control button. Maybe if I had been bigger the line pull would not have been such a problem. At 5'11" and 155 pounds 70 pounds of line pull is enough to make your feet slide across the ground. I was however in good physical condition and had good upper body strength. The other problem is my take off style means this 70 pound pull is rotating around you almost once a second. In the pylon the total 70 pound load is on your thumb. Your fingers are gripping the handle and one pylon post. Your thumb is around the post. Dub would ask me after a flight how fast I went. He knew the answer was in my thumb. I tried attaching a hook to the grip. What a mess. I could never seem to get it in the pylon yoke correctly. The mental component is there is absolutely no room for error. Make a mistake and you are being dragged around the circle. At the time I had about 1200 skydives and never had any mental stress over that. I hope this explains things a bit.

Today Dub and I fly R/C Pylon racers. That spring tension on the sticks is manageable. HA!

Johnny
Last edited by johnshannon; Nov 18, 2019 at 06:09 PM.
Nov 19, 2019, 02:14 AM
Registered User
This, of course, has nothing to do with glow engines, but who cares ?

The Guggenheim Air Safety Competition, 1929 (30 min 32 sec)
Nov 19, 2019, 09:31 AM
DJS Johnny
johnshannon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Stack
This, of course, has nothing to do with glow engines, but who cares ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfgJHRMddA4
Bob,

Really cool! No computer design going on, just freedom of thought.

Johnny


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