Thread Tools
Jan 09, 2011, 02:35 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Discussion

motors for ultra micro models with 6400 brick


this covers not only the ready to fly planes like sukhoi/mustang/4site/champ/t28, but also kits and scratch-built planes that can use the 6400 brick and motor/mount, and motors for twin planes like the mosquito.
the idea is to provide all the data possible and exchange experiences with the install and adaptations, including gear boxes, props, adaptors, brushed and brushless motors-you name it.
when i got my 4site, i realized that the avionics (all besides the airframe) were well matched, and could be used on other kinds of planes like kits and scratch-built planes. and this opened a new world of posibilities.
i am not an advanced pilot, but would like to use the components of the 4site or similar in other types of planes. as a matter of fact, i have designed a series of planes (and many to come) starting from basic trainers/sport models, that stretch the use of these components to allow all modelers, not only the advanced, to make use of all the potential of these parts.
this is specially important because there are more modelers that are not advanced, than advanced.

stay tuned.
i will keep adding to this.
please feel free to bring your polite, positive comments and data.
Last edited by phil alvirez; Mar 23, 2011 at 09:37 AM.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Jan 09, 2011, 04:29 AM
Registered User
habitforming's Avatar
subscribed and looking forward to level-headed & respectful discussion!

I will resubmit some of my past 1s & 2s testing data, as this seems like a good place to keep a relatively consolidated list.

Phil - if you don't mind, continue to update your original post with links to valueable info within this thread. It will help a lot with referencing back for info as well as helping newcomers with questions.
Jan 09, 2011, 06:43 PM
**I'm Battman**
RCBABBEL's Avatar
Phil,

Thread looks like a good idea.

If you can keep pg 1 updated as we go along, I think it would be a help to many.

Info like this:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...4&postcount=96

Feel free to copy and paste any stats from the Solo Pro and Bravo SX motor thread as well.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1326158

Thanks,

rc
Jan 14, 2011, 03:31 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

details


these are some of the motors that will be discussed. more to be added:
1.-horizon's 8.5 geared
a.-clear end bell
b.-black end bell
c.-grey end bell
d.-white end bell
e.-motors for twin planes like the mosquito
f.-also gear boxes made or modified for ball bearings
g.-using 7 tooth pinion gear
h.- new 8.5 EPBRUSH8 from hk
2.-10 geared

1.-8.5 geared: i will start with the motors that are used in this class (sukhoi/4site/mustang/t28/champ):
they all are brushed, 8.5mm diameter, and 20mm long, 5.1 grams including connector and pinion. they come with a brass pinion that is 3.4mm in diameter and has 9 tooth, and is matched to a gear box with a spur gear with 36 tooth, which gives a gear ratio of 4:1. this means that for each turn of the motor the prop turns 1/4 turn, or by each turn of the prop the motor turns 4. this helps the motor run at higher rpms and therefore be more efficient, while being able to use a larger prop for increased efficiency. that's the reason for geared motors.
a.-clear end bell: the 1st released by horizon hobbies (hh) is their part number PKZ3516, that is used on the sukhoi (white) and champ. it is easily identifed by its clear plastic rear end bell.
on the suk it is matched to a feather-shaped 6.3" prop named 160/70 (160 mm diameter, 70 mm pitch), and on the champ to a square tips 5.1" prop (130/70).
b.-black end bell: this 1 followed the clear. its part number is PKZUM1016 by hh, and is more powerful than the clear. it is used with the 5.1" prop. when used with the 6.3" prop, it requires a larger capacity or higher discharge rate cell, otherwise the cell can not handle the larger amps drawn and the motor stops.
it comes in the 4site/mustang/t28/new sukhoi.
stay tuned.
Last edited by phil alvirez; Nov 14, 2011 at 07:47 PM.
Jan 15, 2011, 07:02 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

tests on geared motors


i will post here figures on bench tests. i got the data using an e meter Mk I, that reads and saves figures on v/a/w/rpm's. volts are under load and no load. props used were horizon's 5.1 and 6.3, and gws 6/3 and 7/3.5. cells were hk 160 nano and 240 hyperion, charged to 90%. i got thrust figures with a tahmazo scale that measures on increments of 5 (like: 30, 35, 40...). this means that these figures should be seen as a approximate rather than exact, as they could be let's say 49 and it's shown as 45...i don't know how it's programmed. someone may confirm or adjust this using the rest of the data with motocalc or similar-feel free to bring that data.
motors tested were coreless brushed 8.5 and brushless 10 mm. i named the 8.5 by color of rear cap (also called rear end bell):
clear is the original on sukhoi and champ; black on 4s/p51; grey is solo pro sp; white is bravo sx. p47 motor is same as bravo. pinions are 9 tooth.
figures were measured after 5 seconds run wot, once stabilized. i have been testing motors this way as a measure to prevent failures due to overloading anything, but they may drop considerably afterwards, when reaching the flat part of the discharge curve.
data is shown to be used only as comparison between these motors, as it varies depending of equipment used.
i suggest to use it to find the proportion between them.
as 'clear' is the mildest, take it as the standard against which to compare. like: clear :100%.
there is also data on the kenway geared 1015 brushless.


> > > > march 28-an update: comparison between 160mah nano hk and 240 hyperion cells
figures are thrust/volts under load-no load/amps/watts/rpm

motor: clear #2 (used)
160 nano; prop hh 5.1: 35/ 3.54-4.00/ 1.2/ 4/ 6210
240 hyp; prop 5.1: 40/ 3.73-4.05/ 1.2/ 4/ 6360

these motors handle the 6.3 and 5.1 props with 160 cells, and am showing the figures also with 240 to have a comparison in performance. below will show figures of the others with 160 and 240 too.
240 cell shows improvement, as expected . now we have grounds to compare with the blacks.

motor: black (used).
figures are thrust/volts under load-no load/amps/watts/rpm.
comparison bet 160 and 240 hyp cell.
160 nano; prop 5.1: 45/3.39-4.01/1.5/5/6600
240 hyp; 5.1 prop: 55/ 3.73-4.05/1.8/6/7080
(perhaps this example happens to be way more powerful than average. it even shows more power than the mighty white)
compared to clears on equal terms (5.1 prop/240 cell), they give some 10-15 grams more thrust, while using more amps and watts.

motor: grey (sp)-new.
160 nano; 5.1 prop: 45/3.42-4.05/1.4/4/6450
240 hyp; 5.1 prop: 55/3.71-4.03/1.6/6/ 6630

thrust figures are not so significant as are rpm's. comparing grey with black, grey shows same thrust with less rpm with same prop (5.1), so better consider rpm's for comparison. but this could be a case of a black more powerful than average. for all that i hear, black and grey are about same power.

motor: white (bravo sx)-new.
160 nano; 5.1 prop: 50/ 3.34-3.97/ 1.5/5/ 6510
240 hyp; 5.1 prop: 55/ 3.62-3.99/ 1.8/ 6/ 6870
more thrust/rpm than grey.

p47 (bravo sx)-new-on its gb and prop
160 nano; it's own 5.1 prop: 45/ 3.30-3.92/ 1.6/ 5/ 6570
240 hyp; same prop: 55/ 3.64-3.99/ 1.9/ 6/ 7110
p47 develop more rpm's that the white, perhaps due to a better mesh.
i must mention that these p47 motor/gear box have an absolutely smooth mesh (and i have 4 of them-all same smooth)-feels better than stock gb. but their shaft is 1.55mm, not 1.50 as the stock gb, and has no thread at the front, so you have to use their own prop that comes with a special adaptor. still, this prop performs identically as the stock 5.1, although looks a little bit different (more rounded tips). it seems that the 5.1 is the best bet with these motors-that's why i am using it for this evaluation.

march 14: testing 1015 with kenway gb-new-240 hyp
gws 6/3 prop: 50/3.41-3.96/1.7/6/5520
gws 7/3.5 prop: 55/3.28-3.90/1.9/6/4800
the only 1 that handles these props well; 7" prop still ok. a/w/ increase, but thrust too. i tried the gws's on the others, but it's too much and they quit. i was unable to try the hh 5.1 and 6.3 with this, due to the prop shaft being 1.5mm.
the main difference (and i think an improvement) between this motor/gb and the others is that motor and gb run on ball bearings, and the motor is brushless, which means that the timing can be changed. although with this motor, gb has to be fitted, and needs a extra 1 to 2 gr esc.

march 18: testing grey and white with 7 tooth pinion. ( gives 5.1 gear ratio)

grey-240 hyp
hh 5.1 prop: 40/3.64-4.10/1.0/3/6030
hh 6.3 prop: 45/3.48-4.12/1.1/4/5220
gws 6/3 prop: 50/3.62-4.10/1.2/4/5430
gws 7/3.5 prop: 50/3.57-4.08/1.4/5/4860

white-240 hyp
hh 5.1 prop: 45/3.53-4.08/1.1/4/6240
hh 6.3 prop: 50/3.35-4.03/1.4/4/5370
gws 6/3 prop: 55/3.51-4.06/1.5/5/5550
gws 7/3.5 prop: 50/3.42-4.06/1.7/5/4950
the idea of using 7t is to be able to use larger props for slow flying. besides, there is no need to replace the pinion, but the gb has to be milled to mesh.
the amps/watts drop compared to using 9t.

gear box with ball bearings for 8.5 motors-comparison with bushings gb
march 29: tests of motors with stock gb with brass bushings and then gb from Todd, with ball bearings.

5.1 hh prop, 160 nano cell. thrust/volts/amps/watts/rpm
clear #2: with bushings: 35/3.58-4.00/1.2/4/6210;
with bb: 45/3.60-4.08/1.2/4/6300;
black #2: with bushings: 45/3.39-4.01/1.5/5/6480;
with bb: 45/3.46-4.06/1.5/5/6810;
grey: with bushings: 40/3.48-4.05/1.4/5/6450
with bb: 50/3.55-4.12/1.4/5/6630;
white: with bushings: 50/4.12-3.50/1.7/6/6750;
with bb: 50/4.10-3.48/1.7/6/6840.
there is an increase of rpm (that means less friction) at same v/a/w.

now, the question is: will ever horizon replace the original gb with bushings, with an improved, low cost, performance ball bearings version, or release an option of gb with bb's? (or if not, then hobby king, whoever)?

march 30: ball bearings gb: comparison bet 160 and 240 mah cells. 5.1hh prop

clear #2: 160 cell: 45/3.60-4.09/1.2/4/6300
240 cell: 50/3.73-3.97/1.2/4/6480
black: 160 cell: 45/3.46-4.06/1.5/5/6810
240 cell: 55/3.60-3.92/1.5/5/6930
grey: 160 cell: 50/3.55-4.12/1.4/5/6630
240 cell: 50/3.62-3.92/1.4/5/6690
white: 160 cell: 50/3.48-4.10/1.7/6/6840
240 cell: 55/3.57-3.90/1.6/6/6930
so, yes, there is an improvement on rpm's with the larger cell, as expected.
and that black is quite something.

nov 14: hk is selling another 8.5 motor with gear box:
p/n EP-BRUSH8, with a 5.66:1 gear ratio
here are figures on bench tests:
160hk nano single cell-same esc as before.
figures are thrust/volts under load-no load/amps/watts/rpm
gws 6/3 prop: 45/3.62-4.00/1.1/4/5010
gws 6/5: 45/3.34-3.96/1.5/4/3930
gws 7/3.5 trimmed down to 6" diameter: 45/3.51-3.99/1.2/4/4980
gws 7/3.5: 40/3.41-3.97/1.1/4/4590
with 240 hyperion single cell:
gws 7/6 trimmed down to 6" diam: 55/3.58-4.03/2.1/7/3540
gws 7/6:55/3.53-3.99/2.1/7/3120
6/5 prop same thrust as 6/3 but lower rpm and higher a/w means lower efficiency.
7/3.5 trimmed to 6 is about the same as 6/3.
7/6 and 7/6 trimmed to 6 required 240 cell, as with the 160 motor stopped as it exceeds max amps (1.9) mentioned on specs.
i also have tested it indoor and outdoor and it performs well, specially with a gws 7/3.5 prop. its total weight including reinforced mount, and prop adaptor 1933 by horizon is 8.3 grams. just add the prop. pics in my blog

more figures to follow.
Last edited by phil alvirez; Nov 14, 2011 at 07:46 PM.
Jan 15, 2011, 08:35 PM
Anything that flies
odonata's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil alvirez
these are some of the motors that will be discussed. more to be added:
1.-8.5 geared
a.-clear end bell
b.-black end bell
c.-grey end bell
d.-white end bell
2.-10 geared

1.-8.5 geared: i will start with the motors that are used in this class (sukhoi/4site/mustang/t28/champ):
they all are brushed, 8.5mm diameter, and 20mm long, 5.1 grams including connector and pinion. they come with a brass pinion that is 3.4mm in diameter and has 9 tooth, and is matched to a gear box with a spur gear with 36 tooth, which gives a gear ratio of 4:1. this means that for each turn of the motor the prop turns 1/4 turn, or by each turn of the prop the motor turns 4. this helps the motor run at higher rpms and therefore be more efficient, while being able to use a larger prop for increased efficiency. that's the reason for geared motors.
a.-clear end bell: the 1st is the PKZ3516, that is used on the sukhoi (white) and champ. it is easily identifed by its clear plastic rear end bell.
on the suk it is matched to a feather-shaped 6.3" prop named 160/70 (160 mm diameter, 70 mm pitch), and on the champ to a square tips 5.1" prop (130/70).

stay tuned.
Phil
You could read an article in Flying Models magazine, May 2010, the Electric Flight column by Stew Meyers.It has much useful info on the ParkZone receivers, motors and micro models.I think it summed them up very well.
Jan 16, 2011, 07:19 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

link?


Quote:
Originally Posted by odonata
Phil
You could read an article in Flying Models magazine, May 2010, the Electric Flight column by Stew Meyers.It has much useful info on the ParkZone receivers, motors and micro models.I think it summed them up very well.
any data is welcome. thanks for your intention to help. if you could provide a link to this data, so those who don't have, and can't get that magazine, have access to it, that could be of some help. i hope the article is worth reading it.
regards
Jan 16, 2011, 04:28 PM
Anything that flies
odonata's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil alvirez
any data is welcome. thanks for your intention to help. if you could provide a link to this data, so those who don't have, and can't get that magazine, have access to it, that could be of some help. i hope the article is worth reading it.
regards
I have the magazine but don't think I can post the article because of copyright,but could email it to you.
I have been doing a search for 6400 power systems and found these http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...dproduct=10000
They also have a ESC to go with the motor, but the connections would need changing.Anyway, the 6400 has a built in ESC.
Jan 16, 2011, 09:59 PM
Registered User
odonata, that is only a 6mm motor and not really suitable for use with the AR6400 unless you are building a very light model or a multi. The 7mm motor version is a much better choice.
Jan 17, 2011, 10:50 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

right on


Quote:
Originally Posted by epilot
odonata, that is only a 6mm motor and not really suitable for use with the AR6400 unless you are building a very light model or a multi. The 7mm motor version is a much better choice.

comparison shows the 6mm at 1.95grams and 16gr thrust at 4v/.55a/gws4025, and the 7mm at 3.3gr, 38gr th at 4v/.93a/gws4530.
this means that with an increase of 1.3gr of weight you get 22gr more of thrust.
i think 38gr is around the thrust we get from the clear end bell motor, so it could handle a sport model (like my elf) well. my only concern is again if the prop shaft is strong enough. it looks like 1mm to me.
Jan 17, 2011, 10:58 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

email of article


Quote:
Originally Posted by odonata
I have the magazine but don't think I can post the article because of copyright,but could email it to you.
I have been doing a search for 6400 power systems and found these http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...dproduct=10000
They also have a ESC to go with the motor, but the connections would need changing.Anyway, the 6400 has a built in ESC.
then perhaps you could also email the article to those interested? otherwise how could we learn about the data you mention if we don't have the magazine?
thanks
Jan 17, 2011, 11:46 AM
Registered User
Remember to factor in cell weight too. The 7mm motor will use more current so you should use a larger cell.
Jan 17, 2011, 02:25 PM
Registered User
I R Irv's Avatar
My guess is you'd be lucky to get 25 grams thrust from HK 7mm GB. This one is a much better choice. http://bsdmicrorc.com/index.php?productID=625 It's not cheap but worth every penny. I had 3 of them and never managed to break or bend a shaft no matter how hard I nosed in. It would also be perfect for the GPS-C03 motor.
TODD
Jan 17, 2011, 02:44 PM
Registered User
Thread OP

and for 8.5?


Quote:
Originally Posted by I R Irv
My guess is you'd be lucky to get 25 grams thrust from HK 7mm GB. This one is a much better choice. http://bsdmicrorc.com/index.php?productID=625 It's not cheap but worth every penny. I had 3 of them and never managed to break or bend a shaft no matter how hard I nosed in. It would also be perfect for the GPS-C03 motor.
TODD
exactly. 1.5mm prop shaft; ball bearings. the way it should be.
thanks for the input.
now, let's find something like this, for 8.5 motors.
and for 10mm. we know there is 1. we have seen it.
Jan 17, 2011, 03:05 PM
Registered User
I R Irv's Avatar
I do ball-bearing mods to all my PZ GB's but the 8.5. I could get 1X3X1 bearings in there but it truly needs a 1.5mm shaft.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion ELF 18"-backyard trainer/sport for 6400 brick phil alvirez Scratchbuilt Indoor and Micro Models 30 Dec 26, 2010 01:35 AM
Discussion 6400 and 3351 (champ brick) phil alvirez Radios 7 Oct 21, 2010 04:45 AM
Sold mCX brick and motors for sale or trade for 6400 or green dot thewildweasel Aircraft - Electric - Micro & Indoor Airplanes (FS/W) 1 Feb 17, 2010 12:03 PM
Discussion Cheap replacement servos for the PZ brick/Spectrum 6400? jj604 Micro Ready-to-Fly 18 Dec 10, 2009 05:53 PM
Discussion Elevons with 6400 brick and dx6i Technotron Scratchbuilt Indoor and Micro Models 10 Sep 07, 2009 06:18 PM