16th Century Pirate Galeon - a square rigger in 1:20 Scale - Page 13 - RC Groups
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Dec 04, 2011, 10:28 AM
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A flexible workshop/atelier setup is the best solution:

Dear Jerry,
thank you very much for these informations!

And here are the pics of the progress with my new workshop setup.

The fibreglass hull of the 1.4m long 1/25 galeon is only used as a reference size here to demonstrate how much space is available.
Last edited by disabled; Dec 04, 2011 at 11:32 AM.
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Dec 04, 2011, 11:36 AM
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compact....a true sailor!
Dec 04, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by meatbomber
i think a model that size needs a workspace thats accessible from both sides. or you`ll go nuts from setting up stable enough to work on just to have to turn it all around to do the other side...

so mount the bed as a fold up on teh wall and make the boatyard in the middle of the room
Hey, Meatbomber -
how far are you away from Vienna?

Right now I don´t know if I want to continue that fibreglass galeon at all -
so maybe you would like to visit me here at the beautiful capital of Austria
and we´ll have a chat and some beer and talk it over?

What do you think?
Dec 04, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by yancovitch
compact....a true sailor!
Cheers, Admiral!
Dec 04, 2011, 05:36 PM
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Tja, ich lebe seit 6 jahren in klatovy, vorher hab ich im 16ten in der Thalia strasse gelebt also eh gleich um´s eck (ist in Wien eh alles). Auf der strasse sinds ca. 270km aber ist praktisch alles bundesstrasse, da ist man schon ein bisserl unterwegs. ich muß bis spätestens 5.1. nach wien zu meinem medical da könnt man sich ja eventuell mal zusammenreden.

Dec 05, 2011, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by meatbomber
Tja, ich lebe seit 6 jahren in klatovy, vorher hab ich im 16ten in der Thalia strasse gelebt also eh gleich um´s eck (ist in Wien eh alles). Auf der strasse sinds ca. 270km aber ist praktisch alles bundesstrasse, da ist man schon ein bisserl unterwegs. ich muß bis spätestens 5.1. nach wien zu meinem medical da könnt man sich ja eventuell mal zusammenreden.

Hallo Phillip,
Na - das klingt doch sehr gut!
Auch wenn 270 km auf Bundesstraßen nicht so ohne sind.
Ich wohne im 3. Bezirk im guten alten Erdberg,
wo ich auch aufgewachsen bin.

Bis zum 5. Jänner ists ja nicht mehr so lang hin.
Ich würde mich sehr darauf freuen, Dich persönlich kennenzulernen.

Dec 08, 2011, 08:06 AM
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The untold story about the Galeon "Red Lion".

Unfortunately there are only very few proven historical facts known about this specific ship.

Built in the Netherlands in 1597.
Bought from the german town "Königsberg" (Kingshill or Kingsmountain) in 1601.
Served as a watchship for the port of "Pillau" from 1601 untill 1606 under the command of Kaptn Peter Hintze.

In October 1608 under the command of Skipper Johann Fett it was sailed down to Lissabon (Portugal) with a load of timber, where it was sold together with this load. There are NO proven informations to whom it was sold, nor for what price - or what happened to that ship later on.

Approximate technical datas:

Displacement: 250 metric tons
Length overall: 40 m
Length of the hull : 34.5 m
Length between stem and stern: 28 m
Width of the hull: 8 m
Crew: 30

And that´s allready the end of it´s proven history. (!)

At least since Herny VIII. England worked hard to build up a strong fleet.

In the timeperiod from 1561 to 1653 there was a very strong interest in foreign shipbuilding technology.
Ships of all kinds and sizes where bought from all over Europe to use and to study them.
Especially from the towns of the "Hanse" - but also Venezia, Genua, France and the Netherlands.
Shipwrights/shipbuilding technicians from Germany and Italy where recruited to build up the english fleet and to train the english forces.

Actually all new built english ships of that period show(ed) significant german and italian influences. In studying their good and not-so-good/bad aspects the new, light english galeon was developed.

These again are proven facts.

Now here the fiction begins:

(Or, if you like - let me tell you a fairy tale.)

One of the many merchants of the english king secretly bought that "Red Lion" at Lissabon.
Of course he had to be a trained ship designer as well as an experienced shipwright himself.
And his mission was to find promising foreign ships for his king.
Together with his crew he sailed that little galeon up to Southern England, where most of the new shipyards where. While sailing aboard the "Red Lion", he and also his crew carefully observed the ship´s behaviour in the atlantic wake. Also how the general handling of the ship was during the journey. And all the gathered informations where carefully noticed in the ship´s logbook.
When they finally reached England safely, as a first step of the investigation the ship was then pulled into a drydock and all vital informations were collected.
Complete line drawings where reconstructed, all dimensions of cross sections, planking, joining, rigging and so forth were noticed.

Literally hundreds of merchants, kaptns, shipwrights, shipbuilding technicians - all these experts - where involved in this undertaking all over England - and over the time they analyzed dozens of ships of all sizes.

The general intention was to get a cataloge together with all wanted - and also the unwanted - characteristics and attributes of the upcoming new english fleet. This relatively small Netherland/German galeon was just one of them.

But what happened to the "Red Lion" after that extensive investigation?
(More to come soon.)
Last edited by disabled; Dec 08, 2011 at 09:42 AM.
Dec 12, 2011, 10:57 AM
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Only one week left.

Yes, I started this "second" buildlog of my Pirate Galeon allmost one year ago.

And now it looks like I´m about to " have to" do another restart -...-
I´ve learned a lot during this time, mainly about my own purposes, intentions, feelings, what is important for me personally - and so forth.

There is this fibreglass hull sitting up on the shelf - and sometimes it feels like it is "watching" me -asking: "what are you really up to?"

Well - it is the 1/20 scale fibreglass hull of the "Red Lion", which had a displacement of 250 metric tons. So far so good.

But I see my interest shifting to a wooden hull of very similar proportions, but this time a displacement of ~500 metric tons - again at 1/20 scale. In fact it would have to be 1.25 times bigger than the previous one.

Quite close also to the rebuild of the Spanish Galeon "Andalucia" with
500 metric tons displacement I mentioned and pictured in this buildlog some pages ago.

I´m not even sure, why my interest is shifting into this direction,
I just notice it is happening.

Of course it also may have to do with the aquiration and study of the plan of the "Royal Catherine" from 1664 - but this is a ship of 2nd rank with 84 cannons and about 1200 metric tons displacement.
Not really a ship to be compared with a german "Red Lion" from 1597 -
or a spanish "Andalucia" from about the same period of time.

But I am comparing them - I have to.
I´m sitting here and try to understand the development of hull lines over the centuries - what they did and how they where able to do it.

Be able to design and build these ships with the knowledge of that time -
actually I´m looking into the past and try to reconstruct their thoughts.
From shipwright to shipwright - across the centuries.
Strange journey.
Last edited by disabled; Dec 12, 2011 at 11:27 AM.
Dec 12, 2011, 12:10 PM
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JerryTodd's Avatar
and I thought I was easily distracted.
Dec 12, 2011, 12:16 PM
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Why distracted?

Originally Posted by JerryTodd
and I thought I was easily distracted.
It´s just like a pathfinder would do it.
Just one (necessary) step after the other.

As Mr. Yancovitch wrote - I do it my way.
But if I really want to walk my own way,
I first have to find it.
So it will be try-and-error - just as usual.
Dec 13, 2011, 10:51 AM
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What I am looking for:

Or - what I was looking for from the beginning of this project,
are informations that should be there, but aren´t there!

Most of the proven historical datas where taken from this book. (pic 1)
As well as the plans of "Golden Hind 1575", "Revenge 1577", Red Lion 1597" (pics 2,3,4).

Pic 5 shows the "Royal Katherine" of 1664 again.

So within 89 years from the "Golden Hind" to the "Royal Katherine", which was only a ship of the line of 2nd rank then - the size of these galeons increased from 30 meters to 65 meters and more - like Mr. Yancovitch´s "Royal William", which is a ship of 1st rank.

They increased from 100 tons of the Golden Hind" to 1200 tons of the "Royal Katherine" and more.
From 18 little canons of the "Golden Hind" to 84 canons of the "Royal Katherine" up to 100 canons like the "Royal William" has.

What I want to point out here:

If we could talk in terms of architecture for a moment:

A "Golden Hind" - or even the "Red Lion" - would then only appear like little chapels in a village -
while ships like a "Royal Katherine" or "Royal William" appear like the huge cathedrals in european capitals.

Within less than 100 years ships had to be categorized like in pic 6.
Mr. Yancovitch´s "Royal William" represents the ship on top - 1st rank.
The "Royal Katherine" is 2nd rank.
The "Red Lion" - although considered as frigate in 1597, would be downgraded into a corvette of 6th rank later on.
And the famous "Golden Hind" wouldn´t even show up in this list anymore -...- too small.
Last edited by disabled; Dec 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM.
Dec 13, 2011, 12:11 PM
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The time between 1600 and 1650.

This is the period of time I´m looking at.
This is what I want to study, what I would like to understand more.
And regarding ship development little is known about that time.

Much less than about the time from 1650 to 1700.

The time before these categories 1-6 even existed.
As thats the time when these categories where developed.
We know why they did it and what was the result of that development -
- but who did it?

And how did they achieve that?
Which unknown steps - and also failures - had to be taken?

We could call them the "missing links" of historical ship development:
"Frigates" - merchant ships or pirate ships of/around 500 metric tons displacement from 1600 to 1650 - thats what I would like to have/get/build.

If you have any helpfull informations, plans or linedrawings you would sell to me - or any other useful tip, a link or whatever - please tell me.
Dec 18, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Well - no answer is also an answer.
Dec 31, 2011, 09:48 AM
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My research continues.

Found some interesting links and bought some good books and plans.




(not only very interesting insights into the trade of this time,
but also lots of ships named - some even with pics.)
Last edited by disabled; Dec 31, 2011 at 11:57 AM.
Dec 31, 2011, 01:20 PM
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love roman polanski's ship!...beautifully done...i'm amazed that anyone would have gone to all that trouble......compared to the dinky practice of modifying a modern ship

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