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Jun 14, 2021, 11:36 PM
What goes up ...
Hi Michael,

An embarrassing question about the older, but still excellent FSOne ...

Is it still possible to install the old, FSOne version V1 (1.1) to operate on a Windows 10 system?

Best regards,
Dave
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Jun 15, 2021, 01:50 AM
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MSelig's Avatar
Yes, that old Version 1 will still install -- to Windows 10, and next to infinity and beyond.
The old business plan unfortunately did not include ... "planned obsolescence".
Same problem w/ Version 2. Anyone who bought it in the last ~10 yrs has had by default free upgrades.
That is no way to run a serious software company.
But it does make for happy users.
Jun 15, 2021, 11:37 AM
What goes up ...
Hi Michael,
Thank you so much for your helpful confirmation of Version 1.

Iím sorry to learn about those FSOne problems though. Your kind help, guidance, the excellent team and a great product has always been appreciated for 14 yrs so far ... and that will last to infinity and beyond ...

Best regards,
Dave
Jun 16, 2021, 08:59 AM
Right on the Edge!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSelig
Yes, that old Version 1 will still install -- to Windows 10, and next to infinity and beyond.
The old business plan unfortunately did not include ... "planned obsolescence".
Same problem w/ Version 2. Anyone who bought it in the last ~10 yrs has had by default free upgrades.
That is no way to run a serious software company.
But it does make for happy users.
I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, but such integrity is precisely the reason why I have loved FSOne so much and will continue to do so...
Jun 16, 2021, 01:43 PM
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MSelig's Avatar
Hlaalu11 -- No, trying to be funny. Made me smile at least. Anyway, glad you're enjoying the sim. More to come ...
Last edited by MSelig; Jun 16, 2021 at 06:42 PM. Reason: snip ...
Jun 17, 2021, 02:11 AM
Right on the Edge!
Ah my bad, I try hard camouflaging as a native speaker but that doesn't always work...

Indeed I have been enjoying the sim a lot! And glad to hear there is more coming.

By the way: a year ago or so we had a little back and forth regarding some aspects of the physics of the sim, and I remember one "problem", so to speak, was that the maximum deflection allowed for surfaces was 50 degrees, and while that is more than enough for ailerons, there was an argument for which 50 degrees could be not enough for some kind of maneuvers, possibly even the flat spin (which is really the only bit of physics that I think RealFlight still does a little bit better than FSOne to this day). I wonder if this limitation is going to be fixed with some future release perhaps?

I remember we also talked about asymmetric stall, especially when the elevator is suddently pulled all the way up when in a downline. I know the topic in itself is very ambiguous because not all real planes do that in the first place. But I have to say, even with FSOne, in some occasions, with a fast vertical, or nearly vertical descent, when suddenly pulling the elevator I did experience a small amount of such asymmetric stall -- which I liked because I felt it was realistic. Now I am wondering if more deflection on the elevator could contribute to increase this effect as well?

I am aware you didn't "program in" asymmetric stall, but, as far as I understand the sim, that's some sort of "natural" computational consequence of all the forces at play. I guess it's something similar to wing rock. It's not that you programmed wing rock as a separate entity, but it just happens as a consequence of all the rest (by the way FSOne is the only sim that I am aware of that emulates wing rock at least to a certain amount).

So all of that is to say: is my reasoning correct in saying that, by simply increasing the deflection of rudder and elevator, there could be a chance that that would be enough for certain maneuvers to just come out as a natural consequence of the new variables the physics engine is computing over?
Jun 20, 2021, 03:01 PM
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MSelig's Avatar
Hlaalu11 - Spin (deep spin). I think you are referring to 3D aero blenders w/ 60 deg of elevator or so. You're right that we discussed it before and the max elevator of (most) airplanes in FS One is +/-50 deg. I have yet to add an airplane that goes up to more than 60 deg and super large cf/c values (flap chord to chord ratios, e.g. EF like). I will get there eventually! I might share some data w/ you on this, but my plate is full right now. The wing rock. It's got to be one of the hardest things to sort out and truly understand aerodynamically (talking about conventional wings, not delta wings). I spent about 3 months working on this (on paper and in code) and I left it. Some airplanes in the sim will wing rock (e.g. H9 UltraStick Lite and Sig FourStar), but exactly how this works escapes. Plenty has been published in the literature of slender wing rock (e.g. delta wings), but a conventional wing not so much, and nothing conclusive as far as I'm aware today (6/20/2021). I have not checked the research/literature on this in the last 1.5 yrs ...
Last edited by MSelig; Jun 20, 2021 at 03:10 PM.
Jun 21, 2021, 02:21 AM
Right on the Edge!
Thanks for the reply MSelig! Not sure what you mean by "3D aero blender"... If you mean the so called blender maneuver, that's not what I was referring to. I meant precisely flat spins. It's not that FSOne can't emulate those, but my experience with the sim has always been the following:

1) It's somewhat more difficult to get the plane enter (and stay into) a flat spin in the sim than reality. What I mean is that the exact proportion of surfaces (how much elevator, rudder, throttle, and ailerons) doesn't play that big of a role in real life in terms of keeping the plane "locked" in the maneuver -- whereas it's much easier to "break" it in the sim by simply moving one of the surfaces a bit. In real time atlering such proportions changes the speed and the angle of the spin, but it takes much more to completely "break" it.

2) I can't get the plane to spin that fast in the sim as it does in reality. In fact, all I get in the sim are very slow spins, whereas in reality, with the right amount and proportion of surface deflection, I get sometimes very fast spins even with big planes.

I remember we talked about this back then too, and you said the way airplanes (flat) spin in the sim was pretty much consistent with what you have observed in reality But you also gave me some hints on how to alter the physics parameters of the plane to get a faster spin. So it could indeed be a difference in perception of what is considered "real" that's a stake here.

Learn how to 3D: Flat Spin (2 min 29 sec)
(especially from 1:40 on) is what I consider a "normal" speed flat spin, yet with FSOne I can't seem to get to that speed either. With my real planes I get it to spin faster than the video. It might be my planes particularly suited... I don't know.

Regarding wing rock: actually I didn't mean to ask you going back to the board working on it! I remember you said it's a very complex thing, and by the way FSOne is probably the only sim that models it to an extent, so whatever it's doing it's already doing it pretty much right.

Rather, I took the example of wing rock to express a doubt about a more general principle - that is: being the wing rock phenomenon not well understood, it can't be programmed in the sim purposefully, but it just must "emerge" from the way other more general physics principles are modeled and encoded, right? Well, in the same fashion, mightn't perhaps merely increasing the travel of elevator and rudder have the side effect to make a faster flat spin "emerge" without you ever programming something specific to spins, but just as a pure consequence of varying some parameters onto which the physics is already basing on?

Is pushing the travel of the elevator and possibly rudder beyond 50 degrees (I'm thinking for example about the 80 inches Edge 540, my go-to plane in the sim) to see what happens with spins something long and complex, programming-wise, or could it be a simple experiment on your side?

As always, thanks a lot!
Last edited by Hlaalu11; Jun 23, 2021 at 04:56 AM. Reason: Removed unnecessary part.
Jun 24, 2021, 07:33 PM
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MSelig's Avatar
Hlaalu11 -- I appreciate the feedback. You've got me thinking. Oh, I spent too much time thinking. But you have put your finger on it right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hlaalu11
It might be my planes particularly suited... I don't know."
Yes, that's right. For instance, gliders will rarely do a flat spin (but some will). Other airplanes will spin some other way, but other airplanes ... won't do the same. Aircraft spin covers an incredibly wide range of behaviors! If you've got a spin that your airplane does, don't think that you'll magically find it in some other airplane in the sim. The sim does aero; it does not do mind reading.

Engineering guy here. I can only do Apples-to-Apples. Here is an old 'vintage' video that I made, which does the Apples-to-Apples (real vs the sim for a given airplane, six times):

Real Spins and Simulated Spins in FS One (5 min 5 sec)


[The resolution is so low that it's best viewed on a small smart phone / small window (or not at all!). The video clips were made about 15 yrs ago!!! YouTube was only 1 yr old.]

The caption says it all: "Compares real RC aircraft spins with those from the RC flight simulator FS One. Aircraft include the ParkZone J-3 Cub, Hangar 9 Edge 540, Cessna 182, Twist 40, UltraStick Lite 120, and E-flite Tribute. Spins include upright spins, inverted, power-on and power-off. Control inputs are full throw and same between the real life flights and simulation. The real videos come first (camera a little shaky), and then the simulations come second (camera is smooth)."

[I mentioned the blender in my prior reply because you mentioned flat spin, and I think of both inverted and upright flat spins. The blender ends in an inverted flat spin.]

In the video, the Edge 540 does an upright flat spin, but it is not a tight coil. The Twist 40 does a really tight inverted flat spin, but it won't do that upright. Not in the video is the Swift aerobatic sailplane in FSOne. The Swift won't go into a spin ... unless forced through a super high speed full-throws snap maneuver. It will then wrap up real tight, and go into an upright flat spin. The real airplane did the same thing -- says the person who owned the real model. In the sim, the spin is usually unrecoverable unless the sticks are cycled to get the airplane into a wobble/pitching motion, and then it can randomly be broken free. When I started in RC, I used to fly an Airtronics Q-Tee. It would do a normal upright nose-down spin, but then I could feed in DOWN elevator. It would push the nose more into the center of the spin, and speed UP (convervation of angular momentum). With the higher spin rate, the tail surfaces stalled (or something), and it would go into an unrecoverable really flat spin ... as long as the engine was running. But the .049 engine would get fuel starved, die, and then I could recover. It was 'a game of chicken' -- what will come first: the engine dies or I hit the ground!

So to compare some random video w/ a flat spin (whether inverted or upright) to some other airplane in the sim -- is going to give you mixed results ... like you noted, and also like you suspected(!).

What does it all mean bottomline: To see your tight flat spin (however you want to see it) is going to take putting THAT airplane in the sim from soup-to-nuts -- graphics modeling, flight testing, sim aerophysics model, maybe validation video. That effort -- about 40 to 80 hrs for a graphics model of the quality that end up in FS One. Then with some luck, about 40 to 80 hrs to get to 'first flight' in the sim. I don't know how anyone can do it faster and get a realistic/good result. Then more hours fiddling, taking detours, and having fun w/ it. (Caveat: Doing good 3D acro models on the aero side can take ~2X time on the aero-modeling side because the flight envelope is so large and sometimes there's new coding/theory!) Now, to be clear, I'm not inviting you to make a model -- there is no 'user manual' for it. Now diverging from your main topic, but maybe the question on our mind: When might some new airplane like you're describing be added? Not sure and I don't do 'promises' w/ the sim (never make any promise involving software and simulation). I've got a Q500 in the works right now. It will be the third pylon racer of late. Then I've been looking curiously at DDWFTTW in another RCG thread. That's not RC, but to me ... being an aero type ... it is mighty interesting.

Whatever comes out of a simulator is going to be a compromise of sorts. There are many flight/performance data points that are the final target of the final sim model. Easy is straight and level flight (where all airplanes LOOK THE SAME apart from the angle of attack). Then rolls, stalls, tip stalls, snaps, rolls, etc, then 3D stuff hover, torque rolls, waterfalls, elevators, parachutes, blenders, etc. If anything is super hard and takes too much weighting (matching-wise), then it can totally break the sim model -- making it act weird with the other data points, i.e. making it worse overall.

Yes, to your question: What comes out of the sim is an 'emergent' property of that data going in. In FSOne, there is no code that works like a switch, e.g. nothing like

"If (NiceUserGivesSpinSticks == true), then do SpinHack ... and MakeUserSmile ... and SellMore".


Further, if I'm hacking around doing 'what-if' stuff to get a certain flat spin that I envision in my mind's eye, but IT DOES NOT HAPPEN on the specific real airplane, then I'm basically building and flying a bad sim. It could be a total waste of time.

==>> Life is too short to waste it flying a bad simulator. <<==

Much better is to observe a specific flat spin (aero-science thinking here!!!) on a specific known airplane under known conditions, and then try to model that in the sim. If it is not happening in the sim, then I've got some real opportunities for improvement. And that's not a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hlaalu11
Is pushing the travel of the elevator and possibly rudder beyond 50 degrees (I'm thinking for example about the 80 inches Edge 540, my go-to plane in the sim) to see what happens with spins something long and complex, programming-wise, or could it be a simple experiment on your side?
The aero data table goes up to +/-50 deg for most airplanes (yes, for Edge 540). I would have to create more data to get to +/-60 deg or higher. It is not quick and easy. Then make a deployable/releasable user setup. Also, actually, I would want to create completely new tail surface aero data for a bigger elevator, say, bigger than the H9 Edge 540. So entirely new data. Then it is only going to look right to me if the graphics model matches (so now new horizontal tail), and now it's becoming a big project ... for a FrankenPlane.

Let me know if I missed anything! And excuse any typos here! I will re-read later and fix ....
Jun 28, 2021, 01:56 AM
Right on the Edge!
Thank you so much for your detailed reply.

I guess it answers pretty much everything I was wondering...

By the way I am glad I "inferred" correctly when I said that what one sees in the sim is "emergent" from the way it has been programmed. From a layman perspective (=mine), that's how a simulator of any sort should work. Specific codes meant to trigger specific behaviour from the object modeled may work well in video games, but not here...

I remember having seen that video about spins on YouTube already, and yes, the sim does an excellent job modelling the behaviour of the real ones in there. In this case again I guess it's precisely what you say: I may have had a different experience with real RC models which created in me a certain idea of what a flat spin "should" look like. For example, considering the Edge 540 in the video, which is the closest to a typical 3D frame, I notice the real model in the video needs a lot of throttle to do the spin, around 0:44 - or at least the pilot is putting in a lot of throttle, which is more than what I have witnessed with my own planes. But again, as I was saying a few days ago on another unrelated thread here on this forum, I guess each plane is a universe on its own!...


DDWFTTW: I randomly stumbled upon that on YouTube and, from a totally layman perspective, I also found it mighty interesting! I am really curious to see how the understanding of that will carry on, and the implications that that's going to have (I am sure there are a lot).

I'll send you a PM by the way.

Thanks again and hear you soon!
Jul 01, 2021, 11:24 PM
What goes up ...
Hi Michael and everybody else,
Your 3-D flight dicussion and examples are quite impressive and amazing ... and to imagine having a Swift in a flat spin is quite incredible ... much more than the following embarassing question:

After Michaelís great help, re-installing the FS One V1 in a Windows 10 laptop, it seemed to go pretty well but the display needed to be adjusted to fit the screen. Unfortunately, that was an unfamiliar challenge and a disaster. If you might have any suggestions about this, your help would be greatly appreciated.

In this challenge, the FSOne Properties had to be adjusted to better fit the screen. In that, various Layout dimensions were changed but the right side of the display wasnít visible. That seemed to be ok dimensionally but the right side was not visible. Another set of dimensions in the system was found and adjusted as a try ... but the FSOne Main Menu Display became ultra-tiny and unreadable (now itís ~1" wide x 0.75" high in a column thatís about 1.25" wide x 2.75" high). The Main Menu (old version) is as shown in the attached.

Oh no, embarrassingly, how to undo the display shrinking has been forgotten! Unfortunately, re-installing FSOne again went well but the display format didnít change and itís still tiny! .

Would you have any ideas or suggestions of how this problem could be fixed or reset to other defaults?

Best regards,
Dave
Jul 03, 2021, 01:26 AM
Registered User
MSelig's Avatar
Alba -- Checkout https://www.fsone.com/q000768/. It might help and if you reinstall (in your case), make sure the FS One folder is empty.
Jul 03, 2021, 05:16 PM
What goes up ...
Hi Michael,

Thank you again for your wisdom and that FS One link. A similar scale solution was found through troubleshooting last night too. Woohoo, everything is back again ... hallelujah

Within the FS One Properties, its Compatibility Tab also has a troubleshooting selection. The Compatibility troubleshooter mostly fixed the display scale but it was again too big for the screen because the Windows 10 scale is currently set at 125% (recommended in Windows 10 Settings). After that, in the FS One Options, Video, Manual Fullscreen, the screen resolution selection was changed from 1600.900 to 1024.768 at 60 Hz ... and then the fullscreen display was good again. Hah, ... and the cursor position was found to be where it appears on the screen again .

After reading the link you sent it was interesting and helpful to look into the outcome for various Video sizes possible with Auto/Manual Fullscreen, (for a 13Ē screen). It seems the 1024.768 setting has the biggest proportionately scaled images ... It turned out that the key challenge was due to use of a Windows 10 recommended 125% magnification scale. With 100% magnification the Auto & Manual Fullscreen ones each work well. With 125% scale in use though, the Auto Fullscreen is too big for the 13Ē screen.

Setup of the FS One user stuff (Tx, planes & heli) hasnít been re-done or copied over yet, but if the manual setting is bad, at least other possibilities are better understood now and theyíve each been tried.

The helpful main lesson for me was: if 125% scale is used in Windows 10 display settings, the FS One Options should first be tweaked to use a selected Manual Fullscreen setting rather than an Auto Fullscreen.

Cheers,
Dave

Is there a trick needed to get the Swift into a horizontal spin?
Jul 04, 2021, 11:08 PM
Registered User
Received FSOne V2. 2 weeks ago. This is a superbly designed tool for those who take their rc simulation seriously . It is an excellent teaching aid . Thank you Prof. Selig.
Jul 07, 2021, 12:21 AM
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MSelig's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by onaboat
Received FSOne V2. 2 weeks ago. This is a superbly designed tool for those who take their rc simulation seriously . It is an excellent teaching aid . Thank you Prof. Selig.
Glad to hear it. Thanks.


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