No, KB, that's not a Lipo. If it was a lipo it'd have a balance connector. It's also rated at 9.6v which isn't possible for a Lipo.

Btw, peak voltage for a LifePo4 pack is 11.4v, not 10.8v.

http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/lithium-a123.htm

Peak voltage for them is 4.2v, but degrades the battery. 3.6v would be the safe charging peak. Notice A123 are the ones that commercialized this technology. Though they say that you can infrequently balance them, they state it's definitely a requirement.

Barak, you obviously didn't even bother to look at the link I gave (pics of flat LiFe cells, not packs). And as this was all new and strange to me (though I know a lot about lipo and Nimh), I did some homework before even posting my first post. You obviously haven't. Your own link proves you wrong "A123's are designed to be charged to 3.6v per cell. Lipo chargers charge to 4.2 so they must not be used (directly) with these cells."

Why would I bother, I'm not the one claiming they put a $35 battery in with a $70 helicopter.

Here's a deal. You cut open that pack and take a look at the cells. If it actually has LifePo4 cells in it, you ship them here and I'll buy you two replacement packs.

If it doesn't you eat crow and admit you were wrong.

Edit:

Let's look at this from a common sense point of view. What's more likely:

1. They put a $35 LifePo4 battery pack in a cheap toy helicopter.
2. They put a $5 NiMh pack in a cheap toy helicopter?

You are basing your entire assumption on the shape of the outside of the pack, having not seen the inside at all.

Edit 2:

Correction, a $45 helicopter.

I'm kinda interested to see that the shrink-wrap...looks just like the stuff on my nimmies...

We cannot see the end of the pack where the leads emerge, so no conclusion can be made, other than your points about rounded ends and cell layouts. The strapping tape has become a hallmark of the lipo, and that, we do see here.
The PCB looks nothing like what's inside S031's I've seen.
Very interesting, but I really don't want to be reading stuff like:
"Oh, you must have got one of the last of the old ones they had. My cousin ordered yesterday, and they told him they were getting it right now"
References:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=119
"Now it's cool to buy one".
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...2#post14998755
"Really, you get what you order now."
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=198
"See, here's proof."
No, It wasn't, no, I didn't, and no, it wasn't.

And lest us forget- the S031 is near/dear to 'Ol Motor:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...6&postcount=12


That thread starter has not been heard from since May 24, 2010. I think.


If ANYBODY had the copter PICTURED to sell, the bally-hooing...would be deafening.
EDIT: sorry I yelled that. But I know I told you kids something like this before.

Here are the pics of it opened. And HobbyKing has the LiFePo4 3S 4500 for under $40, so this 800 would be under 10 bucks. TopToyExpress seems to have a spare "LiPo" for the S031"G" for $12.95, but unfortunately no pic. Regular Nimh battery is $4.95.

BTW, my new S031's don't have "G" written anywhere on the box, manual or heli itself. The new S107G's do, on the manual only.

Really going to bed now. Lost too much sleep already.

BTW, I understand all of your skepticism. Truth is, how do you even know I am showing you a battery from a S031? I could have gotten this battery from anywhere. This is an attempt to at least give a little more credibility to it.

Look at the circuit board on the end. I'd hazard to guess that's a balance circuit, possible that it's got step down voltage circuitry as well. Seems kind of strange to go through that much hassle for something this cheap, but it's the most likely scenario.

Since you have it unwrapped, why not check voltage at the tabs of one of the cells? If the voltage reads 4.2 volts at full charge you'll know it's a lipo, if it reads 3.2 you'll know it's a LifePo4. I found one company (www.fe123battery.com) that appeared to sell a LifePo4 in that mah. The size of one of those cells is 13x65x125. If it was one of those cells it should be marked as "13065125Fe". Of course the discharge rate of that cell is only 1c, so it wouldn't be suited for any RC application that I know of. They'd only be capable of producing .8 amps. Not enough to push two 180 motors for a small coaxial, much less anything larger.

HobbyKing can charge what they charge because they produce this stuff in their own factories and sell huge quantities. No one else out there can match their prices, even other Chinese distributors can't.

Edit:

I did a search for Fe123 and found several sources for them online. According to what I've read they are 3.7v voltage per cell. In other words LiPo chemistry rather than LifePo4.

Edit 2:

This is what the pack for that helicopter is supposed to look like:

http://www.enjoyhobbies.biz/rc-helis...syma-s031-heli

Notice it looks NOTHING like what you've got pictured there. You are correct in that we can't know that it's the battery that is supposed to be with the chopper or not. Every source that I've checked has listed it as coming with a 9.6v NiMh pack. Trust me if they were manufacturing these choppers and shipping them all with 800mah LifePo4 packs, it'd be in someone somewhere's advertising.

Edit 3:

More research:

Tenergy 800mah LifePo4 cell

Dimensions - 231mm x 83mm x 6mm
Weight - 231 grams

That's for a single cell. So multiply times 3, that puts the weight of a 3s pack at 693 grams with no heat shrink or wires. That's almost the AUW of my 450!!!!!

Final Edit:

HobbyKing lists it's cheapest LIfePo4 cell as:

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=6563

That's a 1000mah for use in making a battery. List price is $7.95 (that's with my platinum membership, unsure if that's the going price or not).

That means the minimum cost for me to make a 3s would be $7.95 x 3. $23.85. That's excluding the cost of connectors, wet noodle wire, threaded tape, and heat shrink. Notice A123 cells only come in two sizes. 1100mah and 2300mah.

So far I've been unable to find a flat lifepo4 cell produced by anyone with the exception of Tenergy and obviously due to the weight of Tenergy cells they are unsuitable in a helicopter. It's possible the cell in question has some type of metal casing making it much heavier than it should be, but it's the only flat cell out there.

I will offer up a scenario here and see if it makes sense to you, and I'm done with this discussion after.

My suggestion would be that they've found that 11.1v tends to slag the motors on these helicopters, but at the same time they wanted to be able to offer a lipo as an upgrade. 7.2v (8.4v peak) was too little, 11.1v (12.6 peak) was too much. So they put a circuit board on the lipo that balances it as well as limits the output voltage. Of course the only way to know for sure would be to measure output at one of the tabs. Of course this is relying on the fact that the circuit doesn't limit the voltage of the battery. In other words the circuit may be cutting off power to the battery when it reaches 10.8v. This would allow an unscrupulous company to sell Lipo batteries as much more expensive LifePo4 ones. A lipo can after all have voltage anywhere from 3.0 to 4.2 volts per cell.

Barak, glad to see you do a little homework, finally. I have done a little more work at home myself. Made up a female-to-male JST adapter for the pack and hooked it up to my Turnigy Accucell-8 charger/discharger from HobbyKing. Started with lipo setting 3S discharge (to 9v) at 3.2A (4C) but got only 7mah before it stopped. Switched to LiFe setting, same 3S 3.2A discharge (but to 6.0v, 2v per cell), got 640mah, then 1.6A (2C) got 40mah, then 0.8A got 13mah. So total is exactly 700mAh (87.5%), not unusual for a new uncycled pack.

Fe123battery is Fullriver (look down at the bottom of website, thanks for that, couldn't find it myself earlier). That makes sense. They make the lipo batteries for most of the good toy RCs (I know. I have lots.) Syma was one of the first to put a gyro in a cheap toy heli. Why couldn't they be the first to put a LiFePo4 battery in one. They must sell so many helis now. They've got to have some clout with Fullriver (Fe123). I just don't understand why they haven't listed it as such.

I wish this pack had balance plugs but will feel OK using it, knowing that LiFe are safer than Lipos. Many companies sold lipo packs in the past without balance plugs. Thankfully, that's not the case anymore. That said, you can see my discussion comments at HobbyKing (same username, Robachan) about the 138mah 2S pack they sell without one.

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...dProduct=10915

So Barak, you ready to give me a couple of spare packs? Don't bother. Just donate the equivalent to a charity of your choice or give it to someone needy.

100% academic.

Unless sellers start making it clear the model's been improved, this is nothing more than pictures of two copters held together with zip-ties.

Did you read my entire post? Go weigh that pack. Put in on a scale and take a look. They don't make a LIGHT and INEXPENSIVE 3s lifepo4. Fe123 is stamped on a large number of clone LIPOS.

I'd be more willing to buy a new chopper myself and do more scientific research than give you any money since I honestly can't trust your results. As I stated above (and you chose not to read) the circuit board at the beginning of the pack more than likely IS a balancing circuit. Still remains to be seen whether it's a step down circuit or not. Notice I did say "you ship them here and I'll buy you two replacement packs"? In other words I'd verify your results before hand.

Edit:

Also the battery not having the labeled energy capacity isn't normal, and that capacity isn't going to magically increase after you fly it a few times. The batteries only taking 700mah would seem to verify what I'd stated to begin with, that the circuit board is a step down circuit.

If it's not a step down circuit then you have some substandard batteries on your hands.

Barak, the S031 and anything about it, is a waste of your obvious knowledge base. Whatever that battery is, it isn't this:
http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo41...olyswitch.aspx
The more I look at this whole topic, the more I feel funny about only ONE person bringing us the Great News.

Robachan: be honest- did you buy these two as a customer independent of any distributors? Was either a "sample"?
Does the box art/manual reflect the changed form of the copters?

I found that one early on KB. It's got a circuit board on it for balancing that also limits the voltage output. Works as a cutoff when the battery gets below a certain voltage.

Did you notice the weight? 110 grams!!!! That's two times the weight of a Lipo of similar specs. That's why most people don't fly LifePo4 on helicopters.

Big power takes big containment. This type of cell obviously only comes in a heavy metal can...C'mon, PooCopter Mfgr's, take the plunge and pony up for bitty brushless motors, so heavy batts won't matter.

That's the thing, I'm not talking about for small helicopters with brushed motors. I'm talking about on 450 size and larger. Most people will not fly a lifepo4, simply because it doesn't have enough voltage and weighs an arm and a leg.

Here's a 3s 800mah Lipo for a coaxial helicopter:

http://www.hobbypartz.com/83p-800mah-3s1p-111-20c.html

Weight is listed as 45g, typical weight for them is around 65 grams.

Notice in order to get similar power output to this lipo they'd have to do a 4s in LifePo4. That would put the weight at 120 grams or greater for the pack without connectors.

I really had no idea what I was getting myself into by posting here.

To Barak,
My first post said the S031 lifepo4 pack weighs 80g. The example you give is clearly a typo on the website, since the same brand 2S 800 weighs only 1g less than the 3S.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/83p-800mah-2s1p-74-20c.html
Hobbyking's 3S 800's average about 75g. Turnigy 4500mAh 3S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack weighs 461g. 800 / 4500 = 0.177777. 0.177777 x 461 = 82. So the pack's weight makes sense.


And yes, I DID read your whole post. You call it a balancing circuit, but it is simply a board to make a 3S pack, nothing more. I thought my results would show that. Pics could not show well enough without taking it completely apart, which I am not willing to do. Sorry. Also not willing to ship it to you. I want to use it.

Battery clearly has capacity printed on wrapping and on cell. See pics.

Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean they don't make it. Syma quite likely has access to the new technology before it goes on the mass market. I too was wondering why they would use these lifepo4 packs. They are heavier than the equivalent lipo, and for helis, weight is so important. The only thing I can figure is they did it for the safety. Quote from Wikipedia "LFP batteries are gaining popularity now in the world of hobby-grade R/C, due to the benefits over the ever-popular LiPo batteries. They can be recharged much faster and for more cycles, are not prone to catching fire or exploding while recharging, and are more robust than the LiPo type."

To Killbucket,
As I said before, the only difference I notice is that the parts list lists a "Li-poly battery". Manual still says charge takes 3 hours and flying time is 5-6 minutes.
I'm just an RC freak, like you, except that I am also heavily into airplanes as well. You can see my presence at Hobbyking by looking at the GeeBee (EPO) or the Micro Cessna 2.4G and clicking on the discussions tab (and then on my username as well) or the video tab (and then on the video). Or on YouTube my username is SteebunRoba. I honestly bought these for my girlfriend and paid $45 each plus shipping to Japan from RC-Fever. I don't know if I can recommend them yet, as they messed up on two-sixths of my order, and it is still unresolved.

I realize you guys won't believe me until you get it from somebody you know and trust, so there's no more use in this. I've already spent waaay to much time on this, but I hope we've all learned something. Seeeee yaaaa . . . . . .