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Discussion
Complete Guide to LiPo Batteries and Failure Reports - Part II.
GENERAL INFORMATION FOR ELECTRIC FLYERS
The LiPo tool for calculating a safe continuous C rating from Internal Resistance of a LiPo is here How-to Commercial Air Travel with LiPo Batteries From Horizon Hobby https://www.horizonhobby.com/blog-fl...y-on%20luggage LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERY TECHNOLOGY. A COMPREHENSIVE INTRODUCTION WITH SPECIAL CONSIDERATION OF RC MODEL LITHIUM BATTERIES. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...95&postcount=1 BATTERY COMPARISONS - Load Tests - High Current - https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...st-Comparisons What is "C" Explains what it is and how how to use it. Author - Vollrathd https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...81&postcount=1 HOW TO USE A123 RECEIVER PACKS. [/B] From vollrathd. a PDF download. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&d=1648687054 HOW TO CHOOSE A POWER SYSTEM https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...00&postcount=1 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...7&postcount=10 Reading and Understanding LiPo Labels and Specifications by Ken Meyers http://theampeer.org/ampeer/ampmar18/ampmar18.htm Excellent summation on Lipos. Starting on page 4. http://media.wix.com/ugd/e94725_3c46...0cacdafaef.pdf "Learning About Lipo Batteries" - http://www.theampeer.org/Learning-Li...ning-LiPo.html WHY TO CONSIDER "BALANCE CURRENT" SPECIFICATION WHEN BUYING A CHARGER or Why does it take so long to charge my battery" https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...53&postcount=1 Battery University- http://www.batteryuniversity.com/ Beginners Guide to Motor and Prop Selection [/B] (NoFlyZone) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1136470 C-RATING VS TEMPERATURE ------ https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...he-WOT-brigade |
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Last edited by hoppy; Jan 23, 2024 at 10:38 AM.
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Lipo Informational Threads
Some threads I have found useful to me. Battery Load Test Comparison https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...st-Comparisons Video of Lipo Cells/Pack overcharged till cells ignited
Videos of LiPo Container Tests. Several Container tests using larger packs
....Vented Ammo Box - http://www.multirotorforums.com/show...ll=1#post94870 .....Many Tests - YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ipo+test&sm=12 ....Battery containment tests by UtahFlyers: http://www.utahflyers.org/video-main...1-lipo-fires-1 ...Lipo Sack Test http://www.liposack.com/video.htm ...Ammo Box Test 4s3p6000 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355739 ...Brinks Box test - 3s3270 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316210 ...Test of 500g lipo in a owner designed box. Post #6 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=620298 ...Test of a 3s2100mah pack in a cash box. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...3&postcount=33 Test of a Lipo in a Sealed Box. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1827 A Real Life Test- 4s4000mah pack in Harbor Freight Safe. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...05&postcount=1 It was a 6S 5000mAh (Trunigy). In the trunk was a further 6S and many small cells. The LiPos were nearly all brought to camp voltage, ie between 3.8 V and 3.85 V. The goal was to create realistic operations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lipo Fire Bunker Test Lipo Lithium Polymer Battery Contained Ignition (1 min 21 sec) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LiPo Burn Test LiPo Burn Test (2 min 15 sec) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cash Box - Lipo storage (1 min 34 sec) Ammo BoxTest Lipo battery fire containment test 1 (2 min 16 sec) PYREX baking dish with bag of sand. - Lipo charging test and intentional fire - safety demo and a cheap solution. (4 min 32 sec) Real Life Test - Office Depot fire safe HERE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why Not to Puncture LiPo's https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...75&postcount=1 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...38&postcount=4 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...6&postcount=15 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...3&postcount=33 The Hows and Whys of Pack Balancing: A complete guide on how and why to balance LiPo packs written by BEC. Covers everything from A to Z. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599287 p=3320890&postcount=29[/url] Parallel Charging Balancing: (RD Blakeslee) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388233 Balance/Adaptor Plug Information (everydayflyer) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...0&postcount=29 How Big a Battery do I Need for My QUAD? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...74&postcount=8 Overdischarged battery? Here are some of the recent threads on that subject. I'm sure you will find an answer to your question in one of them. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1072324 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1002464 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1072215 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1074106 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1072181 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1002464 How Many Amps Can I Draw from my Battery? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...(everydayflyer) Disposal Instructions for Damaged Lipo: https://sites.google.com/site/tjingu.../lipo-disposal https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...3&postcount=27 Comparison of Resistance discharge to Salt water dunking
Parallel charging packs https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...light=parallel https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...light=Parallel https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...light=Parallel https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=8din Storing Lipo's https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...95&postcount=5 http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-19.htm http://www.motorola.com/testservices/article1.htm http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...7&postcount=11 Low Votage Cutoff (LVC) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...68&postcount=1 (everydayflyer) To rough check the LVC setting you are using, if the voltage is less than 3.7V/cell 20 min after flying, increase the LVC setting. If it is above 3.7V, decrease the LVC setting or leave it where it is if you are happy with the flight time. This is a rough check and you'll need to check pack temperature and capacity used to make sure the LVC is not set to low. How to read CBA graphs- https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...89&postcount=2 (everydayflyer) How Much Capacity Is Left In My Pack? By measuring the pack voltage, a rough capacity check can be made. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...57&postcount=7 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...76&postcount=6 What is the Usable Capacity? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=628397 Parallel and Series Battery Wiring Diagrams http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/_lipo.html Life History of a Bent Pack https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733512 Protecting Mini Deans Connectors https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ni+deans+hoppy Changing from a 2s to a 3s Lipo Pack - What you should know. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...05&postcount=4 Thoughts on the Safety of Charging Lipos Indoors - http://www.tjinguytech.com/charging-.../lipo-problems A123 Battery Information + Battery Comparison Voltages http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/lithium-a123.htm Did that short hurt my battery pack? https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...0#post23190305 Motor Stutters on start-up https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...09&postcount=1 |
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Last edited by hoppy; Jul 09, 2017 at 01:50 PM.
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How To Threads:
One Cell Charging/discharging adaptor
Auto-Discharger http://www.myrcmart.com/rcx-3in1-bat...ng-p-4767.html Build a $3 Wattmeter: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...harbor+freight How to measure individual cell voltages with a multimeter. Bring probes in from opposite sides to minimize the shorting possibility. The black wire is #1 cell neg. and the #2 hole is the #1 cell pos. Cell #2 would be #2 neg and #3 positive. Etc. How to discharge any pack without a light bulb adaptor. See https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...3&postcount=16 |
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Last edited by hoppy; Jan 15, 2017 at 09:58 AM.
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LIPO LITERATURE
Lithium-Ion Batteries Hazard and Use Assessment - http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/re...zard.pdf?la=en http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-i...ge-voltage.htm http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/41531.pdf http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/conferencesw...hty-Sandia.pdf http://powerelectronics.com/site-fil...ttery-life.pdf http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap4-page9.asp http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page6.asp https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=11 http://www.gbrcaa.org/ntoa/Li%20Poly%20Review%201.htm http://www.huret.com/overview.pdf http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm http://corrosion-doctors.org/Seconda...i-ion-reac.htm http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/09-55.pdf http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...ONE2011_17.pdf http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/availa...ssertation.pdf http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm#dod http://www.mpoweruk.com/battery_manufacturing.htm http://144.206.159.178/ft/641/92454/1607530.pdf http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-i...ge-voltage.htm http://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vie...asa-technical- http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA527711 http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message...ery%20Life.pdf http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_pac...ymer_tech.html Pack swelling on discharge - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...90286/abstract Why batteries puff - http://barnson.org/node/1842 What's wrong with LiIon - http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blo...mion-ba-1.html LENR Failures - http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglars...iesjan-23-2013 http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ased_batteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery https://library.villanova.edu/Find/R...20/Description http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...dent_chart.pdf http://www.starkpower.com/cyclelifechar.html http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/b.../1/08-0012.pdf http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/41531.pdf http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/syste...y_04112006.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78775303002817 http://www.college-de-france.fr/medi...UY_MARLAIR.pdf http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...niel-0809.html http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/re...rieshazard.pdf http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/41531.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf...roceedings.pdf http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-i...ge-voltage.htm http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/conferencesw...hty-Sandia.pdf http://powerelectronics.com/site-fil...ttery-life.pdf http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap4-page9.asp https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...7&postcount=11 http://www.gbrcaa.org/ntoa/Li%20Poly%20Review%201.htm http://www.huret.com/overview.pdf http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm http://corrosion-doctors.org/Seconda...i-ion-reac.htm http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/09-55.pdf http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...ONE2011_17.pdf http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/availa...ssertation.pdf http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm#dod http://www.mpoweruk.com/battery_manufacturing.htm http://144.206.159.178/ft/641/92454/1607530.pdf http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-i...ge-voltage.htm http://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vie...asa-technical- http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA527711 http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message...ery%20Life.pdf http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_pac...ymer_tech.html http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...90286/abstract http://barnson.org/node/1842 http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blo...mion-ba-1.html http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglars...iesjan-23-2013 http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ased_batteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery https://library.villanova.edu/Find/R...20/Description http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...dent_chart.pdf http://www.starkpower.com/cyclelifechar.html http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/b.../1/08-0012.pdf http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/41531.pdf http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/syste...y_04112006.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78775303002817 http://www.college-de-france.fr/medi...UY_MARLAIR.pdf Li Plating during -40F charging. http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/b.../1/08-0012.pdf http://www.idea2ic.com/FUN_DOCUMENTS...20Death%29.pdf Very comprehensive discussion on Li-ion batteries https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/...31033-64_r.pdf Relationship of SOC and Vent with fire - http://www.icao.int/safety/Dangerous...P.005.2.en.pdf Effect of state of charge on thermal runaway - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...FU-fbA&cad=rja A General Discussion of Li Ion Battery Safety - http://www.electrochem.org/dl/interf...2_p037_044.pdf Lithium-Ion Battery Hazards http://magazine.sfpe.org/content/lit...attery-hazards Thermal Runaway caused fire and explosion of lithium ion battery. (chemistry) http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/home.php?mo...hment&id=18661 A Critical Review of Thermal Issues in Lithium-Ion Batteries (SOC/Thermal runaway info) https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1.3515880 (46 pages) DGPWGLB.1.WP.015.en.doc DANGEROUS GOODS PANEL (DGP) WORKING GROUP OF THE WHOLE ON LITHIUM BATTERIES (3.3.1.1 30% SOC for safety) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...n1Kotg&cad=rja Nail Penetration Thermal Runaway Testing - http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2...ulu_2013_p.pdf Thermal Runaway of Large Batteries – Gasses formed. http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...per%202015.pdf Lithium-ion Battery Use and Hazard Assessment - https://books.google.com/books?id=V4...%20SOC&f=false How Lipo's are made - https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials...eries-are-made ================================================== =================== ================================================== ===================== Safety of Li-Ion batteries - extensive review http://www.rechargebatteries.org/wp-...-Recharge-.pdf A General Discussion of Lithium Ion Battery Safety http://www.electrochem.org/dl/interf...2_p037_044.pdf Thermal-runaway experiments on consumer Li-ion batteries with metal-oxide and olivin-type cathodes http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/artic.../ra/c3ra45748f Calendar Aging of NCA Lithium-Ion Batteries Investigated by Differential Voltage Analysis and Coulomb Tracking http://m.jes.ecsdl.org/content/164/1/A6066.full Predicting lithium-ion battery degradation for efficient design and management: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...hS6I3Gw2EETYFP Summary of FAA Research on Lithium Battery Hazards - Packaging Standard Considerations. 2016 https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/2016Conf...tionsPres.pptx Why Lipos Fail https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm Are Lipo's Safe? https://www.superlithiumbattery.com/...safe-1293.html Cycle Life vs SOC https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-...ge-voltage.htm https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...KFmZy3ZrFw3w-z Why not to use Salt Water to discharge lipo packs: https://forum.flitetest.com/index.ph...ad-idea.12467/ Testing fire potential at different SOC - https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA609340.pdf LIPO fire suppression review -https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/19/5117/htm Hazard analysis of various Li-Ion Chemistries - https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf LIPO storage temperature and lifespan: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...3/1/012010/pdf https://www.crtes.com/cts_images/whi...whitepaper.pdf Cause and Mitigation of Lithium-Ion Battery Failure—A Review - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8510069/ SOC and fire potential - https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/tctn22-27.pdf Why to store packs at a low SOC. https://www.ifixit.com/News/69041/ho...ZunZiCXh6gI%3D |
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Last edited by hoppy; Aug 01, 2023 at 08:40 AM.
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2 questions
I have 2 different types of battery packs and im not sure on how to charge them. i have an Astroflight lithium charger with the astroflight power supply. what im not sure about is what amperage setting do i use for these 2 different batteries? is there an equation i can use in the future to determine what amp setting to use?
1. pro lite V2 2100 mAh 3s 11.1v thunderpower pack 20C continuous/40C burst 2. Eflite 11.1V 3200mAh 3s 15C continuous Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer. |
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Thread OP
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Most common charge current is 1C.
Take the mah capacity of the battery and divide by 1000. This gives you the 1C charge current in amps. 2100mah/1000 = 2.1A charge current (1C) 3200mah/1000 = 3.2A charge current (1C) If the battery pack allows a 2C charge current multiply the 1C current by 2. If 1C = 2.1A charge current, 2C would be 4.2A charge current. |
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made big mistake today and charged 2 cell on 3 cell setting realized when cell volts were 4.56v each, cells were loongmax tipple and were stone cold and after discharging back to 4.2v they flew my plane just as normal. 1st time iever done this in 5 years of electric rc planes. I gues the newer cells are more stable now but please do not try this, I consider myself very lucky to have got away with it.
Wonder what voltage they would go up to b4 catching fire though----anyone care to try? |
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Latest blog entry: Eachine E160 3d helicopter
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Uneven discharge of two 4s batteries in series
I have a problem of uneven discharging of my 4s batteries connected in a series. I have rechecked the soldering on the series connectors (eflite manufactured) and that changed nothing. I tried replacing one of the batteries in the pack and that changed nothing. I have rotated the batteries in the pack and that changed nothing. All batteries are charged full to 4.2 or slightly less. When I test run my motor I draw down 2000 mAH from two 5000 mAH batteries connected in a series. When I recharge them one typically charges to 2700 mAH and the other 1700 mAH. I am pulling close to 50 amps @ wot (about 1500 watts). This test usually takes 2 min 20 - 30 sec to complete. If I were to run to LVC I will ruin at least one 4s battery (I've done it already). I am running out of ideas on how to correct this. Please advise. Thanks DB
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Thread OP
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You are correct in thinking something is amiss here. What's happening cannot be happening but it is.
Couple of questions. What is the voltage of each pack 1 hour after charging? What is the voltage of each pack 15 min after the test has ended? Can you measure individual cell voltages? That would be more informative than total pack voltages. 50000ma draw/5000mah pack = 10 C-rate 60 min/10C-rate = 6 min operation. So 2.5min/6 min = 0.42 0.42 x 5000mah = 2100mah which is close to what you are reporting. Are you using 2 different chargers? The voltages asked for will tell a lot. |
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I am using two chargers and the top limit is different. One tops out at 4.19/cell and the other is 4.23 / cell. I did recharge the lower reading battery in the higher charging charger to "even" them out. The difference between battery's after that procedure is approximatley 800 mAH. Still too much to fly that way. I haven't checked voltages after a test run because I was testing, charging, testing etc. I can do that in the next round. These are 20c 5000 mAH Turnegy batteries all new never used. I will rerun my tests and will record indiviual cell voltages as well. I can report individual voltages when I retest maybe later tonight. Thanks DB
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Quote:
4.23V is over the recommended max charge voltage for lipo cells. If that voltage is correct, I would replace that charger. 4.2V and lower is OK. Lower full charge voltages giver longer cycle lives. Charging to 4.1V/cell substantially increases cycle life. It would be higher desirable that the voltages were measured with a DVM or other device separate from the charger so that all voltages are made with the same measuring device. Voltage before charging for each cell. Voltage after charging for each cell. MAH in for each pack. |
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The chargers are iMax B8+ and an E-flite EFLC506. Neither have voltage adjustment features. The iMax B8+ charges to the 4.20-4.23. The E-flite maxes at 4.13 - 4.17. I have a Hobby King battery Medic which will read individual cells and balancer (use for storage prep). The voltages match what I am seeing on the chargers though.
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