Your thoughts on the "Dedicam" - DSLR platform - RC Groups
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Jul 28, 2010, 06:27 AM
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JimmyE's Avatar
Cool

Your thoughts on the "Dedicam" - DSLR platform


Hi all,

I came across this "octo" copter while looking at a mountain bike website (my other hobby) which looked fascinating. I fly heli and gliders mostly (DLG and slope) but this thing screams "project!" as a DSLR has been on my wish list for a while now too.

dh welt cup (1 min 48 sec)

http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/membe...3269/sspomer,2
http://www.dedicam.tv/

I'd like your thoughts / comments about building something like this, or whether the bi- and tri-rotor designs I've seen in this forum would be better from an electronics point of view.

Also...
Significance of eight props over two or three? Stability? It looks to track very smoothly.
Can anyone eyeball those motors? Any idea of thrust output? I know that 4S lipo looks big and the website states around 15 minutes flight time.
And how is yaw achieved? Rotation of opposing booms?

Thanks in advance,

Jimmy
Last edited by JimmyE; Jul 28, 2010 at 06:38 AM.
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Jul 28, 2010, 06:58 AM
My other vehicle is unmanned
fpvnick's Avatar
Dont know if you have read this thread https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1142429 but id start with a tri a lot less complicated then move onto something like this that takes a lot more setup to get working later.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1142429
Jul 28, 2010, 08:06 AM
We shall serve the Lord
kingsflyer's Avatar
Or better yet, get something a lot less complicated that will actually "glide" when the battery reaches cutoff. DSLR cameras are expensive and they should be considered as "at risk" when they are used for AP purposes.

Here is my suggestion for a safer, less complicated AP platform:

http://electricflights.com/hawkeyemainpage.html

McD
Latest blog entry: LEDs on my T-28
Jul 28, 2010, 09:12 AM
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tblount70's Avatar
You mention that it seems to track very smoothly. I agree the video is extremely smooth. So smooth, in fact, that I have to wonder if some post-processing was done to make it that smooth. If that is the case, you can hammer the rc project till the end of time - if you don't come up with similar video processing software your end product will not compare.

Not trying to discourage you here. I'm always attacking some unquantified project with reckless abandon. Just wondering how big the scope is on a project like this.
Jul 28, 2010, 10:24 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsflyer
Or better yet, get something a lot less complicated that will actually "glide" when the battery reaches cutoff. DSLR cameras are expensive and they should be considered as "at risk" when they are used for AP purposes.

Here is my suggestion for a safer, less complicated AP platform:

http://electricflights.com/hawkeyemainpage.html

McD
McD,

The Hawkeye is indeed a capable flier, however, it notes a typical payload of 6 oz of camera. A far cry from even the new 4/3 cams at 20oz much less a DSLR at 27-30 oz. The Hawkeye28 might carry the load, but sails are notoriously poor fliers in any kind of wind. A great "starter" aircraft for sure though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tblount
You mention that it seems to track very smoothly. I agree the video is extremely smooth. So smooth, in fact, that I have to wonder if some post-processing was done to make it that smooth. If that is the case, you can hammer the rc project till the end of time - if you don't come up with similar video processing software your end product will not compare.
Hate to say it, but that is probably straight up, unedited, "unsmoothed" video. We've built several tricopters and you do have to work on vibration issues, but we have flown video on them and they are stupid smooth! I would imagine that the Okto shooting that video is just as smooth or smoother with the weight of a DSLR on it.

Just my .002

Gene
Jul 28, 2010, 11:22 AM
Registered User

powered kite vsdredundancy


the kit has a few disadvantages over the octocopter
it can not hover, can not compensate for single motor failure , needs take off and landing space, no autonomous fligth. more sensitive for wind. more mechanics to fail (servo's links ect) more dificult to fly.


il go go for the octocopter anytime over the hanglider.
Jul 28, 2010, 11:59 AM
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Zirt57's Avatar
OK, not to start an argument here but I just wanted to set a few facts straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmulder
the kit has a few disadvantages over the octocopter
it can not hover,
True

Quote:
can not compensate for single motor failure
False: It glides down without any problems. Even with a motor failure, the Hawkeye can still be steered. Ask me how I know.

Quote:
needs take off and landing space,
True: but not much.

Quote:
no autonomous flight
False: just like an octocopter, autonomous can be added with the right electronics.

Quote:
more sensitive for wind.
False: they are about the same. Most good APers will tell you not to fly in windy conditions anyway.

Quote:
more mechanics to fail (servo's links ect)
Both True and False: While a octocopter has no mechanics, it has a lot more electronics to fail.

Quote:
more difficult to fly.
Very False: The Hawkeye is one of the easiest planes to fly out there. Until you get your octocopter setup and all the electronics in place it can be very hard to fly. Again, ask me how I know.


- Jeff
Jul 28, 2010, 12:55 PM
Registered User
Yeah, and it's a sickening feeling to watch that multirotor quit and watch your camera come tumbling down...

I believe the multirotors will be a useful AP tool, but they still have to mature a bit more, just like any new system.
Jul 28, 2010, 01:37 PM
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Zirt57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CenTexFlyer
Yeah, and it's a sickening feeling to watch that multirotor quit and watch your camera come tumbling down...

I believe the multirotors will be a useful AP tool, but they still have to mature a bit more, just like any new system.
That's the thing, each system has their own merits and I don't think any one system is the perfect system. That's why I have 3 Hawkeyes, 2 Hexacopters, 3 quads, 1 tri, 1 T-Rex, 1 Solution, 1 Super Solution and an assortment of half built AP planes (just need to move electronics if needed) in my arsenal. So far, no one of them is perfect for every shoot.

- Jeff

p.s. Oh, and so far, only the Hawkeye 24 and the Super Solution will I trust with my DSLR.
Jul 28, 2010, 02:35 PM
Registered User
A controlled glide down or be able to continue the flight with 1/4 less power is a big diference in my opinion.
ALso heli based aircraft can compensate to turbulence in every direction.
And electronics have proven to be far more reliable then mechanics.
In my opinion the hanglider has a advantage in cost of airframe, range, max forward airspeed and duration.
Jul 28, 2010, 03:09 PM
Registered User
Zirt57's Avatar
I'm not too sure about electronics being more reliable than mechanical. I've yet to have a servo fail (except upon crashing ) I've had a few esc's fail. Now that being said, the redundancy is why I've built my Hexa's. However I feel we still aren't there yet in reliability (on any front). At work I have server's that are backed up by fallover servers. Raid drives backed up by fallover raid drives. Multiple power supplies backed up by UPS backed up by diesel generators. The redundancy we build into our data centers just goes to show that we still don't trust our electronics. Somehow I wish I could have the same kind of redundancy built into my AP planes. However the weight is prohibitive.

Anyway I think we kind of drifted off of Jimmy's original questions.

"Significance of eight props over two or three?"
Simple, lift and redundancy. Eight motors of equal size can lift more than three of the same size. (Everything else being equal) And of course, if one motor/esc fails as shown in one of the forums here, you can keep flying. On a personal observation (and I could be wrong) but the Octo's do appear to be more stable.

And how is yaw achieved?
The electronics control the spinning speed of each individual motor. Half the motors are spinning clockwise and half counter-clockwise. Yaw is controlled by speeding up some motors and slowing down others. The motor torque then causes yaw. (OK, that's my simplistic explanation. I bet someone else can do better.)

The following link is one of the best if you want to get into multi-rotor craft. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1097355

- Jeff

p.s. I just found that video that shows a hexa flying again after he broke one arm off after a crash. What this shows is if an ESC or motor had failed while in flight, no problem. With only 2,3 or even 4 rotors, down you go.

My Homemade HexaCopter Test. (Looping and Crashing :) (3 min 47 sec)
Last edited by Zirt57; Jul 28, 2010 at 03:15 PM.
Jul 28, 2010, 10:03 PM
Flying Half Pound and Down
DaOldGuy's Avatar
Add HD and FPV to multi rotor and it is very fun and flexible.

I am just starting to get into AP, cheap camera and a slow stick, but the multi rotor looks like the place I want to be.

HD FPV - Torque rolling 45% Yak54 above the water - RCExplorer.se (3 min 23 sec)
Jul 28, 2010, 10:16 PM
Which way is it blowing?
SF Sloper's Avatar
I think directional control must be a bit tricky, and a gyro would probably be mandatory for this type of setup.
You could program the motors in pairs, 2-L, 2-R, 2-fwd, 2-rear and control them each proportionately for yaw, but up and down motion would require all 8 in parallel??
Great video, looks cool judging from the expressions.

cool photo here, is the one on the left flying, and the one on the rt. video'g?!
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/dedicam...pery-2010.html
Last edited by SF Sloper; Jul 28, 2010 at 10:21 PM.
Jul 29, 2010, 12:02 AM
Registered User
JimmyE's Avatar
Hello again,

thanks for all the input. Turns out the novel "Dedicam" is the Okto Mikrokopter which sells for ~2K US and which incidentally is listed in your referenced thread - thanks Jeff. http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/en/MK-Okto
https://www.mikrokopter.us/shop/inde...&product_id=69

This forum is opening up a whole new world! Thanks for all the links. I've got a lot of reading to do now...

BTW, some fantastic videos of multi-rotor automation on the German site...
MikroKopter - HexaKopter (11 min 28 sec)


Jim
Jul 29, 2010, 05:12 AM
Registered User
Some of the discussion above clearly shows the disadvantage of moving most of the multikopter threads into the multirotor heli forum. The initial question should have probably also been posted there.

An octo is no more difficult to build or set up than a tricopter, probably easier as it does not have the mechanical servo, it only has the microprocessor based flight controler. An octo normally will not come sailing down if one or two ESCs or motors fail or props come loose in the air and it does have larger lifting capacity.

Initial cost of a quad RTF with camera and all can start at between 500 and 1000 Euros home build, or about 1400 Euros RTF if bought assembled. I've had several quadrokopter crashes but even in a quadrokopter chances of survival of part or all of the more expensive parts (electronics, camera) are quite high. So far my highest repair bill has been approx. 100 Euros, usually a significantly lower. =And even in a quadro with experience and a bit of luck in case of failure of one motor you still have a chance to bring it down in a semictronoled descent. With a tri if anything fails you have no control whatsoever.

For more info on the pros and cons of multikopters vs helis and planes, available offerings, prices, etc, best go over to the multirotor heli forum and maybe start out with Jesolin;s excellent mega-link sticky at the top of that forum for lots of reading.


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