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May 08, 2014, 04:19 AM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
brokenenglish's Avatar
While the plane in question resembles CRM's work, I think we may be looking in the wrong direction.
J.A. Sizer designed and built a lot of waterplanes (I only know some of the i.c. powered ones, through his debates with JFP Forster and Claude Bowden).
It seems to me that it would be a bit cheeky on the part of CRM to put one of his own planes on the cover of someone else's book(!), and that the plane we're considering may therefore be a Sizer design...
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May 08, 2014, 05:06 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
The publication date I have for the Sizer book (the one with the Moore painting on the cover - there is what appears to be a later edition which has a PHOTOGRAPH of a power flying boat not unlike the Mermaid on the cover ) is 1946, some three years after the Gyford Gull was published in Aeromodeller. My own gut feeling is that the model painted by CRM would have existed, would have been painted from a photograph or an actual model (I can find no other instances of CRM painting fictitious models - or fictitious full size aircraft - and his detail on those he did paint was always pretty accurate) and would have either been a development of the Gyford Gull or an original design by, most likely, J A Sizer. But since drawings of the model did not feature in the book, it seems highly unlikely that published plans would exist.

Assuming that the model in the cover painting was, like the Gyford Gull, a twin rubber driven model, isn't it also likely that, by the time the book was published in 1946, due to the resumption of power flying in the UK, the emphasis of enthusiasts and experimenters like Sizer, Gyford (and Moore) would have changed to power models, much like the one on the cover of the later edition of the Sizer book?

All conjecture, and sadly we are unlikely ever to know as, even if plans were ever published for the cover painting model, plans for twin rubber flying boats were unlikely to be big sellers so the chances of a plan surviving somewhere might be pretty slim. But still, it's fascinating to speculate!

One other coincidence; on the very next page of the August 1943 Aeromodeller to the Gyford Gull article is a double page dimensioned plan for a twin rubber model called "Twinnertoo", but a landplane this time, not using the complex drive system but motors in each of the (large) nacelles. The designer? J. A. Sizer
May 08, 2014, 02:42 PM
Registered User
Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenenglish
While the plane in question resembles CRM's work, I think we may be looking in the wrong direction.
J.A. Sizer designed and built a lot of waterplanes (I only know some of the i.c. powered ones, through his debates with JFP Forster and Claude Bowden).
It seems to me that it would be a bit cheeky on the part of CRM to put one of his own planes on the cover of someone else's book(!), and that the plane we're considering may therefore be a Sizer design...
I did not know that. I have never come across any info or planes credited to J.A. Sizer. I will focus my search in that direction and see what I come up with.

Any chance of posting a picture of the later Sizer book cover George?

Never mind George. I found it.
There are some later reprints also, but they have plain brown covers with no cover photo.

Chris
Last edited by Tomahawk; May 08, 2014 at 02:50 PM.
May 09, 2014, 02:02 AM
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Tomahawk's Avatar
After searching with J.A. Sizer in mind, not much has surfaced in the way of plans at all.
There is a boat plan by J.A, Sizer offered on MHS.
http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/produc.../meteor-mm1241

Going through the Aeromodeller index I have from the 1938 to the about the mid. 50's only revealed two references of J.A. Sizer.
One is for the Twinner Too rubber plan in the August 1943 Aeromodeller that George referenced earlier.
If you want to see the plan, Algy posted it over on the Free Flight thread.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=903

The second reference is in the August 1946 issue of Aeromodeller. It is a discussion of flying boat design. Maybe someone could post it. I have a feeling it will be similar to his book but maybe could offer some info to the single tail gull wing plane.

Chris
May 09, 2014, 02:32 AM
Registered User
Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenenglish
In addition, this means that any surviving plans are full size, and so aren't very easy to scan, especially for the elderly gentlemen who may possess them...
You surprised me a little as it is very easy and inexpensive to have a B&W copy made of plans here. I figured it was the norm all over now. I never build on the original plans. I take the original paper plan to the local business and he makes a copy for me. Usual price is around $6-$7 dollars and I also walk out with a copy of the plans as a PDF file on a flash drive.
The machine is not very big. It is vertical standing machine The only limit he has is he can't feed a plan any larger than 36" wide into it.
It is a scanner and printer in one. It scans the plan first and saves it to the hard drive. If I want something other than a 1:1 ratio, he can manipulate the plan. I can have it scaled bigger or smaller. He can mirror print parts of the plan easily. (for those plans that only have one wing side.)
Actually one time I wanted a plane scaled larger that the 36" printed width and he split the printed plan into two halves that overlapped.
If you don't need a paper copy, he has scanned and saved the plan to a flash drive as a PDF for a couple dollars.
The nice thing with the PDF file, I only need the flash drive to make another copy for a friend.
Yes I have used him to print copies of plans from the Outerzone.

Hope you can find a business in your area that offers the same service.

Chris
Last edited by Tomahawk; May 09, 2014 at 01:01 PM.
May 09, 2014, 03:51 AM
RFJ
RFJ
Registered User
RFJ's Avatar
Quote:
Maybe someone could post it.
Chris - This is the Aeromodeller article.

Ray
May 09, 2014, 05:00 AM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
brokenenglish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk
Hope you can find a business in your area that offers the same service.
Chris, I'm well aware of everything you wrote. I guess it's mostly a case of motivation and driving distance.
May 09, 2014, 08:12 AM
WMD
WMD
Womble of Model Depiction
WMD's Avatar

Bristol Bullet


Here's another one I'd like help with. Bristol Bullet, rubber model with 18in span. I have no idea where this was published, or when. Can anyone help with the designer and a date? Thanks.
May 09, 2014, 11:17 AM
I'd rather be flying.....
JeffMac's Avatar
Steve - The Bristol bullet was in air trails 1948? by walt schroeder. Walt did not design this one - it was published in maybe aeromodeller - I'm going by the seat of my pants here...

Best Regards,

Jeff
May 10, 2014, 07:33 AM
AMA 8711, FCC K4WZA
DPlumpe's Avatar
Here's the original layout of Schroder's Bristol Bullet, a fullsize foldout plan from May, 1948, Air Trails. Originally by E.J. Riding in Dec, 1945, Aeromodeller. 1"=1ft. scale.

Tagline: "This rubber or CO2 motor powered scale model can also be built as a control-line ship"

-Dave
May 10, 2014, 09:04 AM
Registered User
Must have been a 1/2 scale version of the 1945 AM plan which was 37" span.
May 10, 2014, 09:07 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk
I did not know that. I have never come across any info or planes credited to J.A. Sizer.
There are some later reprints also, but they have plain brown covers with no cover photo.

Chris
The cover photo is a one of Bowden's models, power was a Baby Cyclone. I have a third edition of "The Design & Construction of Flying Model Aircraft" published in 1943 that contains the same photo plus one of the model flying in Gibraltar harbour.
Last edited by patmcc; May 10, 2014 at 09:13 AM.
May 10, 2014, 10:12 AM
WMD
WMD
Womble of Model Depiction
WMD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlumpe
Here's the original layout of Schroder's Bristol Bullet, a fullsize foldout plan from May, 1948, Air Trails. Originally by E.J. Riding in Dec, 1945, Aeromodeller. 1"=1ft. scale.

Tagline: "This rubber or CO2 motor powered scale model can also be built as a control-line ship"

-Dave
Thank Jeff, Dave, that's great. Got it now.
May 11, 2014, 01:08 AM
Registered User
Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFJ
Chris - This is the Aeromodeller article.

Ray
Thanks for posting the article Ray. It did give me some ideas to search for.

I came across the Dryad by H. E. White. Not the actual plane from the cover, but similarities like what we are looking for. Maybe a later revision. Or only borrow aspects from other designers. Anyway I am searching on H.E. White's flying boats at the moment.


The plan is on the outerzone
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1766
Last edited by Tomahawk; May 11, 2014 at 02:07 AM.
May 11, 2014, 04:35 AM
Registered User

russian gull


hallo,
look at the russian version of a similar gull!

In my 1946 second edition Sizer booklet was advertised a Gyford Gull plan of 54 inch span while the Gyford Gull on photos was rated at 52, 1/2 inch span . Is it an error? or a first version sigle rudder existed?
we have to look for 1943 first edition of the booklet..
regards Pit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk
Thanks for posting the article Ray. It did give me some ideas to search for.

I came across the Dryad by H. E. White. Not the actual plane from the cover, but similarities like what we are looking for. Maybe a later revision. Or only borrow aspects from other designers. Anyway I am searching on H.E. White's flying boats at the moment.


The plan is on the outerzone
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1766
Last edited by p.balsi; Jan 18, 2015 at 01:26 AM.


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