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May 05, 2014, 01:20 PM
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Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by patmcc
Chris,
WP137 is the model photographed in your reply #13038, it's listed with the second photo but wrongly credited to CR Moore in the 1992/3 & 1994/5 plans handbooks.

CRM's "The Wakefield Twin Gull", using the "Moore Drive" was featured in the July 1943 AM whilst Gyfords "The Gull" featured in the August 1943 AM. The closness of publication dates probably accounts for the confusion between them.

Incidentaly whilst checking the above I was unable to access Colin Usher's excellent list of historic AM pages, looks like they may have been permanently removed.

Pat.
Thanks Pat for clearing the muddy waters.
I too noticed Colin Usher's AM pages were missing. The site was one of the first I went to when I started searching for information on C. Rupert Moore. It was a good resource. Hopefully it is something temporary and not permanent.

Chris
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May 06, 2014, 03:40 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
I looked up the August 1943 Aeromodeller in the hopes that the article on the Gyford Gull might give some clue to the existence of a variant such as the one on the front of the Sizer book - but it doesn't. In fact there is not even a reduced plan, the article is just two pages with several photos. Unfortunately I cannot scan and post it as all my wartime Aeromodellers are in professionally bound volumes and I don't want to damage the spine, they are already pretty fragile. In any case, due to the poor paper the reproduction would be awful. It looks like the book cover model is destined to remain one of those tantalising glimpses from the past.
May 06, 2014, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer
I looked up the August 1943 Aeromodeller in the hopes that the article on the Gyford Gull might give some clue to the existence of a variant such as the one on the front of the Sizer book - but it doesn't. In fact there is not even a reduced plan, the article is just two pages with several photos. Unfortunately I cannot scan and post it as all my wartime Aeromodellers are in professionally bound volumes and I don't want to damage the spine, they are already pretty fragile. In any case, due to the poor paper the reproduction would be awful. It looks like the book cover model is destined to remain one of those tantalising glimpses from the past.
Sundancer

some of digital cameras are very good on close ups - any chance of posting photos of pages

john
May 07, 2014, 01:28 AM
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Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer
In fact there is not even a reduced plan, the article is just two pages with several photos.
I have come across that with Rupert Moore's planes before. There is no reduced plan to look at in the magazine. You have to order the plan. George, I found a post awhile back where you wanted the plan for his Short Scion and it came back with no small plan in the magazine, you had to order it.
(BTY if you want the plan it is available now on Myhobbystore)
Is this why his plans are hard to come by now?
In all my searching I have only found four of his plans available.
Two on the Outerzone and the other two on MHS. This did surprise me.
I have read about his planes and plans in snippets of thread conversations but to actually find the pics or the availability of his plans, I came up almost empty handed.

He is known for his paintings and with us especially the Aeromodeller covers but, his plans seem to be slipping away. There should be an effort to have them placed on the Outerzone and Hippocket site.

If it helps, here are the ones I know about.

DH Tiger Moth - plan available on Outerzone
Viper II - plan available on Outerzone
Short Scion - plan available on MyHobbyStore
Jackdaw - plan available on My HobbyStore
Fledgling - not available ( I did find mention of a reprint of it in the April 1992 Aeromodeller)
Wakefield Twin Gull - not available ( small thumbnail of plan)
Caster - not available
Hawker Typhoon - not available ( for a rubber model this had working retracts)

There must be more, but this is all that I have come across.

Chris
May 07, 2014, 02:34 AM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
brokenenglish's Avatar
Chris, I agree with everything you say.
Unfortunately, Rupert Moore's plans are victims of "the way things were at the time".
Most of his plans date from before 1945, and it was during 1945 (I think) that Aeromodeller started printing reduced versions of full size plans in the magazine.
Before that, you either had a scaled working drawing (in the magazine), usually with full size ribs and formers, etc. OR, when a full-size plan was being published, there was just an article in the magazine, inviting readers to order the plan, but no reduced size drawings.
Unfortunately, almost all Rupert Moore's plans fall into this latter category. The exceptions are when some have been revived in later vintage articles or when some have been updated and modernised, e.g. his "Lysander".
In addition, this means that any surviving plans are full size, and so aren't very easy to scan, especially for the elderly gentlemen who may possess them...
May 07, 2014, 03:02 AM
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marecisko's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenenglish
Chris, I agree with everything you say.
Unfortunately, Rupert Moore's plans are victims of "the way things were at the time".
Most of his plans date from before 1945, and it was during 1945 (I think) that Aeromodeller started printing reduced versions of full size plans in the magazine.
Before that, you either had a scaled working drawing (in the magazine), usually with full size ribs and formers, etc. OR, when a full-size plan was being published, there was just an article in the magazine, inviting readers to order the plan, but no reduced size drawings.
Unfortunately, almost all Rupert Moore's plans fall into this latter category. The exceptions are when some have been revived in later vintage articles or when some have been updated and modernised, e.g. his "Lysander".
In addition, this means that any surviving plans are full size, and so aren't very easy to scan, especially for the elderly gentlemen who may possess them...
Hi,
probably in Smithonian institut could be infomration about Rupert Moore's plans.
Yes it is long way to get info but probably last one.

Marecisko
May 07, 2014, 05:03 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk

Fledgling - not available ( I did find mention of a reprint of it in the April 1992 Aeromodeller)

Chris
Quite right Chris, the little Fledgling beginners rubber model was republished as a full size pull out plan along with a build article by Andrew Longhurst. I looked up the magazine but my plan is not with it, I removed all the full size plans years ago to aid filing and they are "somewhere" in my "system" - you know how it is.

Brian's explanation of the plan publishing practices in wartime Aeromodeller is spot on, and undoubtedly explains the fact that some of CRM's plans are hard to find.

I did get a Scion plan and will build it one day for twin electrics.
May 07, 2014, 06:10 AM
RFJ
RFJ
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I thought the Fledgling was a Cyril Shaw design as published in Aeromodeller November 1951 - or is their a C. Rupert Moore design with the same name

Ray
May 07, 2014, 06:59 AM
*jj
*jj
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFJ
I thought the Fledgling was a Cyril Shaw design as published in Aeromodeller November 1951 - or is their a C. Rupert Moore design with the same name

Ray
Yes - there was a Moore design of this name - I have one a yard away from me as I type! It flies quite well. I have just had a quick search for the plan - which was a freeby with the Aeromodeller some years ago - but can't find it. I will have to have another look some time.

'Fledgling' was a common enough name; there was a Veron kit of the same name, similar size to the Moore model.
May 07, 2014, 07:15 AM
So I'M meant to be in control?
Colonel Blink's Avatar
I've just skim read the above about the Gull (as I'm on an enthralling telephone conference). According to my 1968/9 Plans Handbook, the Gull Flying Boat was on the X list even then (WP137X) and shows a publish date of 1943 [no month], if that helps anyone find it....
May 07, 2014, 08:12 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFJ
I thought the Fledgling was a Cyril Shaw design as published in Aeromodeller November 1951 - or is their a C. Rupert Moore design with the same name

Ray
Yes it is Ray - as well as being a CRM rubber design and a Veron kit as jj says. The Shaw Fledgling is an attractive shoulder wing 0.5 cc power model, I've looked at it more than once as a prospect for electric R/C, with or without scaling up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Blink
I've just skim read the above about the Gull (as I'm on an enthralling telephone conference). According to my 1968/9 Plans Handbook, the Gull Flying Boat was on the X list even then (WP137X) and shows a publish date of 1943 [no month], if that helps anyone find it....
Too much skim Colonel! As posted by Tomahawk and confirmed by me the Gull by Gifford (WP137X) was in the August 1943 Aeromodeller, but without a plan. This was the twin fin model, the one Tomahawk was originally trying to find was the single fin/sponson equipped model from the C Rupert Moore painting on the front of the J. A. Sizer "Model Flying Boat" book, which it seems may not actually exist in plan form. The twin fin Gyford Gull plan is available.
May 07, 2014, 02:45 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by *jj
Yes - there was a Moore design of this name - I have one a yard away from me as I type! It flies quite well. I have just had a quick search for the plan - which was a freeby with the Aeromodeller some years ago - but can't find it. I will have to have another look some time.
Freeby in AM April '92, if that's any help.
May 07, 2014, 09:12 PM
Registered User
Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Blink
I've just skim read the above about the Gull (as I'm on an enthralling telephone conference). According to my 1968/9 Plans Handbook, the Gull Flying Boat was on the X list even then (WP137X) and shows a publish date of 1943 [no month], if that helps anyone find it....
We are about 98 -99% sure the plan WP137 is the Gull Flying Boat by A.K.E. Gyford.
Giving credit to Rupert Moore is incorrect. The plan is available on the Outerzone.
The dead giveaway is the name on the plan. It is labeled "The Gull Flying Boat" in the upper left corner of the Gyford plan.

I still feel the Moore-Sizer Gull wing plane existed. Just looking at a plane in one of Mr. Moore's paintings and then referring to the plan of the plane. Mr Moore was very meticulous to ensure the outlines and stick structure was the same. This only tells me he actually had the plane in front of him or a photograph of it.

Chris
May 07, 2014, 09:20 PM
Registered User
Tomahawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFJ
I thought the Fledgling was a Cyril Shaw design as published in Aeromodeller November 1951 - or is their a C. Rupert Moore design with the same name

Ray
LOL, A quick search on the Outerzone reveals five different plane plans with the name Fledgling. With Shaw's and Moore's that makes seven different plans.
Awhile ago I started to affix the designer's or suppliers name to the plan and then people knew the plan I was talking about. ex. Vernon Fledgling or Skyleada Fledgling.

Gulls now Fledglings. People are going to start to become really confused to the plan we are discussing!

Chris
May 08, 2014, 03:45 AM
WMD
WMD
Womble of Model Depiction
WMD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk
...I still feel the Moore-Sizer Gull wing plane existed. Just looking at a plane in one of Mr. Moore's paintings and then referring to the plan of the plane. Mr Moore was very meticulous to ensure the outlines and stick structure was the same. This only tells me he actually had the plane in front of him or a photograph of it.

Chris
Chris, it seems to me most likely that he either painted an imaginary plane, or that he did indeed work from a photo of a plane which never had a published plan ...which would mean that there is now no existing plan.

It would be nice if you were right, and your feeling was correct. But it remains just a feeling. As has been said before, it may be simpler just to draw up the plan that you want to exist.

But like I said, good luck in your search.

Steve


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