Originally Posted by yucafrita

If you really think that humans only do the right thing because of fear of imaginary being that will punish you in the afterlife...well, that is just sad.

There's lots of studies to back that opinion up.

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

I think you'll find that Franklin wasn't an atheist.

that's what I get for listening to bill maher

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

There's lots of studies to back that opinion up.

I don't think we would have survied as a species if this was the case...humans are moral animals we look after each other...it's in our DNA...

Originally Posted by LcJ

I wish I hadn't made my comment about atheists now. Just like any other subset of society there are good, honorable, respectable people among atheist just as there are liars, cheats and theives amond those who call themselves Christian. Their actions determine a man and their character. Do I agree with you, no, I don't. But I am no better or worse than you only different. So I do apologize for any statements that would mean that you are less in or to society than I am.

Sincerely,
Lyle

Cool Lyle

I fully agree with what Griffin said...I didn't want to go there right away...cause I didn't know what reation it would get...but look what just happened in Iraq yesterday...thats religious murder...and you only have to look at england to see Catholics and Protestants did the same thing to each other...

Ben Franklin was NOT an atheist by any reasonable account. He was not religious, and did not attend church regularly all his life, and he certainly was a poor model of virtue, but he was by NO account an atheist.

Originally Posted by popdada

I don't think we would have survied as a species if this was the case...humans are moral animals we look after each other...it's in our DNA....

So is hate, anger, rage, and murder.

Originally Posted by popdada

. . . both sides of this coin can get ugly. . .

Mikhail Gorbachev
Kim Jong-il
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Mao Zedong
Karl Marx
Benito Mussolini
Pol Pot
Joseph Stalin
Leon Trotsky

Originally Posted by popdada

. . . Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin . . . .

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult

Originally Posted by popdada

. . . I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams

President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era.

Originally Posted by saltyzoo

Ben Franklin was NOT an atheist by any reasonable account. He was not religious, and did not attend church regularly all his life, and he certainly was a poor model of virtue, but he was by NO account an atheist.

Agnostic ?

Originally Posted by Libelle201B

Agnostic ?

As mentioned above he was a deist.

Originally Posted by saltyzoo

So is hate, anger, rage, and murder.

All trends that are increased tenfold when when one side says "my God is better than yours" or that "God is on our side" or my favorite "it's God's will".

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

There's lots of studies to back that opinion up.

Religous studies?

Originally Posted by Viper Pilot

Mikhail Gorbachev
Kim Jong-il
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Mao Zedong
Karl Marx
Benito Mussolini
Pol Pot
Joseph Stalin
Leon Trotsky

we can list bad guys on both sides...as I said before

Osama bin Laden...same god by the way
Alexander VI
Gregory IX started the inquisition

Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists...BTK went to church every sunday....

Originally Posted by LcJ

I wish I hadn't made my comment about atheists now. Just like any other subset of society there are good, honorable, respectable people among atheist just as there are liars, cheats and theives amond those who call themselves Christian. Their actions determine a man and their character. Do I agree with you, no, I don't. But I am no better or worse than you only different. So I do apologize for any statements that would mean that you are less in or to society than I am.

Sincerely,
Lyle

Since you are striking a conciliatory tone, I'm compelled to come your way a notch.

By no means do I mean to say religion is all bad. In fact, when I say it is "detrimental to humankind", I'm only saying the bad outweighs the good by a very tiny margin.

The good which comes from religious organizations and individuals is not insignificant--the charity work my folks do thru church is amazing. The positive role in communities as well as successful countries like the US can't be denied. For example, the Mormans are extraordinarily generous and had trucks of supplies leaving for New Orleans before Katrina even hit land. Finally, as Madsci points out, there is evidence that individual behavior is improved with fear of god and devils watching and ready to punish them.

For myself, I need nothing more than this life to motivate me to be who I am and I have not the slightest concern about the meaning of it all. Especially with a young boy in my life now. Why bother about afterlife myths when what I pass on to my son will echo throughout his life and a thousand lives after his.

-Steve

Originally Posted by madsci_guy

There's lots of studies to back that opinion up.

I doubt that there are any unbiased studies that demonstrate that to any convincing degree at all.

I have said this many times, but if the only reason a person doesn't screw someone over, kill, steal, or bang someone else's wife is that they think god is watching and they fear divine retribution, then they are a pathetic excuse for a human being and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

From Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, Dorfl's oath for the skeptical..

"I, (Named Oathee) Pending the discovery of a Diety whose existence withstands rational debate, swear by the temporal precepts of a self derived moral system."

Originally Posted by yucafrita

All trends that are increased tenfold when when one side says "my God is better than yours" or that "God is on our side" or my favorite "it's God's will".

B.S. A fair share of the bloodiest wars in the world had nothing to do with religion. Religion is just another reason to kill someone. There are a lot more.