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Oct 04, 2013, 02:19 PM
2016 The Year for Air Shows
Red.Sneakers's Avatar

Learn to Fly with Rudder & Aileron


Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch8
Champ owners is this really good trainer that will help rc plane pilot progress into 4 channel? I am used to rudder on left stick after flying cp heli. Also would this be good beginner micro? I got UM-T28 on a whim but its bit fast for my to learn on. My goal is just scale flying micro size planes such as UM T-28 and UM P-51d As3x but I also like slow flyer for relax flying.
You can train with the Champ. I mix Rud > Ail so I have rudder control on both the left & right stick. Mentally, if I want to practice Ail, I use the right stick. Practice Rudder, use the left stick. It's all about hand / eye coordination. My Champ review is at link https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...31Report#18463

For a 'slow flyer for relax flying', check out La Bella Dame. My review is at link https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...+dame&reort#10
...
Last edited by Red.Sneakers; Mar 28, 2014 at 09:53 AM. Reason: update
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Oct 04, 2013, 05:59 PM
65 years of RC flying
Daedalus66's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacaur
Yes its great for progressing to a 4ch plane. 3ch or 4ch, you really dont fly them that differently. On both the main bank/turn control goes on the right stick, and on both you can completly ignore the left stick if you want (except throttle of course)
You certainly can't ignore rudder on a 4 channel model! How are you going to steer during taxi and takeoff, let alone align the model during a crosswind landing? Teaching students to use rudder is one of the key points in any decent training program.

Learning with a three channel model can help learn to use rudder, provided the rudder channel (CH4) is mixed to the aileron channel (CH2), which is actually controlling rudder on a three channel. This allows you to control on the ground with the left stick and in the air with the right stick -- just like an aileron model.

(As noted by Red Sneakers.)
Oct 04, 2013, 06:47 PM
Heli's rule!
dacaur's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus66
You certainly can't ignore rudder on a 4 channel model! How are you going to steer during taxi and takeoff, let alone align the model during a crosswind landing?
ok, you can ignore it except during takeoff and landing Unless of course, you hand launch and belly land into the wind, then my original statment stands.... My point is simply that, when talking about learning to fly, the rudder on a 4ch plane isnt needed to fly. If it is, then you arent flying a very good trainer. I guess that depends on your definition of trainer... Im sure there are many different levels of 'trainer" out there, from nice easy flying planes you can easily learn to fly on your own, to less easy flying planes that basicaly require a buddy box if you want a chance of sucess...
Obviously, there is certainly no reason you NEED to ignore the rudder, but a new flier has enough on their mind, that making turns look pretty shouldnt be very high on the priorities list.... Later, when they start to get comfortable then they can start learning to use the rudder...

Just my $0.02. Personaly, I prefer not to use the rudder most of the time if I dont have to, as it just doesnt add anything to the enjoyment of the hobby to me to have pretty looking turns. Bank-n-yank is a lot more fun. When flying a heli where the rudder is required to turn the nose of the heli, I will use it, but if its not required, I dont see a reason to do it. I just want to make sure the newbs out there know that they dont HAVE to use the rudder on their 4ch plane untill hey are comfortable with it....
Oct 04, 2013, 07:30 PM
Registered User
My first 4 channel plane was a PZmicro p51. One of the 1st generation ones. I only used the rudder on the ground but once in the air, it was yank and bank all the way. I never touched the rudder until I progressed to a more advanced state of pilotage. That's a big word for me!
Oct 04, 2013, 07:40 PM
Custom User Name Title
bhoov128's Avatar
we went thru this a while back, it got stupid, i was quite the guilty party in that, so let's just leave it where it's at - mix or don't mix, so long as you get the plane in the air and work on keeping the nose level through turns. It's different than heli world for sure (I can fly a FP heli 'ok' but a CP heli forget about it, might as well set my wallet on fire). However you turn the plane, you have to keep the nose up. You can do it with added throttle or with elevator. There aren't any rotating wings on a plane (yes, I know this is obvious, sorry) so you won't generate lift unless you're MOVING through the air, You can fly a heli very very slowly because it generates lift as long as its rotors are turning, but if you try slowing down a plane, even a Champ, too slow, you are just going to eat dirt. If you get a champ I would recommend you to take it up about 40 feet or so, and try to fly a box pattern with nice turns at each corner without losing altitude. 40' is a good altitude for a champ because it's still easily visible. The dihedral on any airplane is a roll-stability feature i.e. it wants to resist an airplane being in a rolled attitude. The incidence on the wing and the stability of the high-wing on the Champ means that with added airspeed, it picks up the nose. (this is actually true for ANY airplane; it's just very very very obvoius on the Champ.) I've shown people how easy it is to fly the Champ and how difficult it actually can be to crash it - I'll flip it upside down and basically full throttle tweak it out in the sky and then just kill the throttle and let go of the transmitter. I've even held it by the handle by my side. The Champ 99 times out of 100 pulls out of a dive and levels its wings all by itself. The other 1 time it's usually upside down and who knows what the happens,

Just get the fundamentals of always moving forward and keeping momentum up and you'll be okay. Worry about 4 channel and all that stuff later. Torch I think you were given advice a while back that a Champ would be the place to start but you had decided you'd purchase either the T-28 or the UM P-51 AS3X version, and I will tell you that the Champ is a much better foot in the door. It flies comfortably at half the airspeed of the other two. That means more time to react, more time to think, more time to relax and control the plane.

And then later on when you're flying EDF jets going 150mph and torque rolling a 128" AJ Slick with a 4 cycle gas engine, I promise you'll still pull out your Champ, look around to make sure no one is looking, and go fly a 35 gram 3-channel orange cartoony looking plane with a big, sappy, excited grin on your face.

Ben
Oct 04, 2013, 07:41 PM
65 years of RC flying
Daedalus66's Avatar
Of course it depends what you're flying. Lots of models are hand launched and many don't even have rudder.

But we're talking about learning to fly and for me that means learning to takeoff and land above all else. You just can't do it without rudder and you need to learn to use the left stick. So setting up the Champ to emulate a four channel model makes sense. You can learn with just the right stick for steering, and it will fly perfectly well. But it's much better, if you have a programmable transmitter, to set up a mix and learn the skills you'll need later for more advanced models (like the T-28).

If you don't have a programmable transmitter, it just means you'll have to unlearn ground steering with the right hand and learn to use the left. Not a big deal.

Do follow the advice above and learn on the Champ until you are good at it. Then go to the T-28. When you can fly that well, you'll be ready for the P-51.
Oct 04, 2013, 08:21 PM
Registered User
Ginohio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus66
Of course it depends what you're flying. Lots of models are hand launched and many don't even have rudder.

But we're talking about learning to fly and for me that means learning to takeoff and land above all else. You just can't do it without rudder and you need to learn to use the left stick. So setting up the Champ to emulate a four channel model makes sense. You can learn with just the right stick for steering, and it will fly perfectly well. But it's much better, if you have a programmable transmitter, to set up a mix and learn the skills you'll need later for more advanced models (like the T-28).

If you don't have a programmable transmitter, it just means you'll have to unlearn ground steering with the right hand and learn to use the left. Not a big deal.

Do follow the advice above and learn on the Champ until you are good at it. Then go to the T-28. When you can fly that well, you'll be ready for the P-51.


Not everyone that owns a champ has a flying field that they can do ground take off or landing. Like all my planes they are hand thrown and a belly landing. And I have a few different ones. I live in the country so crop fields are where I mainly fly..no landing strip in a tilled corn/soybean field around here.
Oct 04, 2013, 10:03 PM
Scout CX | mCX2 | mSR | 120SR
North_of_49's Avatar
I've posted my DX6i photo of my rudder/aileron mix several times in this and the other Champ thread with an explanation of why I did it, which was to practice and develop the muscle memory for left stick ground steering knowing that my next purchase would be a 4ch plane...

... I did get that 4ch plane this summer, my Glasair (converted it to a taildragger) and found out quickly why it probably would have been in my best interest to have actually been using that Champ mix but wasn't... got lazy and didn't use the left stick steering on the ground even though I had it available to me...

... in my Glasair maiden video I posted in another thread, you can see that my first 2 take-offs ended up being literally 90 degrees to the orientation they began at... knowing that I hadn't developed that necessary throttle/rudder coordination, I didn't want to complicate my left hand operation of my Tx and just wanted to delegate that hand to only throttle for my first take-offs (less thinking to do)... since I was in a large field, I could just let it veer wherever it wanted and, due to p-factor and motor torque, it did do that and I expected it would (if I had have had curbs on either side of me I would have severely damaged my bushwheels and/or gear... which I did actually do weeks later but that's another story).

But, on my 3rd take-off, I tried adding in right rudder and got a nice straight take-off and have been doing it ever since... I even add in some down elevator on initial acceleration to get the tail flying right away before the mains come off the ground... looks soooo scale! Ben knows what I'm talkin' about

When I get my Champ back in the air, I'll definitely be using that rudder-aileron mix to keep my ground steering muscle memory honed while switching back and forth between my current collection of planes which now includes another 4ch and one soon to be converted from 3 to 4ch. There was some discussion at one point as to whether my 100% mix would double drive and overdrive the Champ's linear servos if putting both sticks fully to one side... in about a week, I'll be joining Ben in the DX9 club and that Tx has an absolute (servo) travel feature you can use to prevent mixes from doing exactly that

anyhoo... just tellin' my little story, maybe it will be of benefit to someone

(by the way, the Glasair manual says to turn with the ailerons and not even use the rudder other than for ground steering. Can't do those cool looking slips without rudder so I'll be ignoring that suggestion )


EDIT
Here's the vid that shows my take-offs before learning ground steering...

0:05 1st take-off
2:15 2nd take-off
then
4:53 3rd take-off trying some p-factor/torque countering with rudder (yay!)

click picture to watch at YouTube to avoid the low frame-rate forum embeded player
There's 1080HD in the video options for it




My take-offs now (between curbs!)
(easier to see in HD and full screen and viewed on YouTube without the jerkiness of the crippled framerate of the RCG embedded player)

HobbyZone Glasair Sportsman Taildragger Bushwheels Scale Take-off (0 min 8 sec)
Oct 04, 2013, 10:15 PM
Registered User
Nice take off there North. A little right rudder on a take off roll makes all the difference!
Oct 04, 2013, 10:21 PM
Scout CX | mCX2 | mSR | 120SR
North_of_49's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwp2
Nice take off there North. A little right rudder on a take off roll makes all the difference!
absolutely, my friend!
Oct 04, 2013, 11:17 PM
Custom User Name Title
bhoov128's Avatar
I just took my Champ outside for a couple battery romp and I just set it up on my brandy-new DX9 ...

"Timer Start."

"Ten minutes remaining."

"Timer Stop."


(I like my sexy British voiced transmitter friend, I shall name her Gemma Arterton and we shall be very close)

Anyways, I've always used the rud>ail mix on my Champ, and I fly it with left and right stick turning, kinda coordinated turns without anything to coordinate with. Put the Champ on the ground, pushed the throttle forward, and ate grass. Tried to taxi, nothing's happening, why's my rudder broken, what the f... oh yeah. I forgot to set up the mix. beep, beep, click, roll, roll, beep, beep, says Gemma, and next thing you know I'm rolling down the street at midnight under the streetlights with the tail flying and the big fatso bushwheel mains rolling and up up UP we goes, and from there it was like old friends.

That's how ingrained left stick rudder on the Champ is for me.
Oct 05, 2013, 07:40 AM
Registered User
Thats an awesome story. I use the same mix on my DX6I and it works great. I know what you mean about left stick rudder being ingrained. Its the same way for me. If the female voice on the DX9 is that sexy, I have to get one!
Oct 05, 2013, 10:28 AM
2016 The Year for Air Shows
Red.Sneakers's Avatar

Champ Failsafe


OK, we lost a Champ this week at the field. Indiana Jones, flew off into the wild blue yonder. Based on my Google Earth calculations, he was out 1,000 feet out. I think the plane lost radio contact and fell out of the sky. Baldy says the rated radio range for the Champ brick is 500 feet – conservative estimate, but he would not try doubling it. I checked the pattern I fly and looks like I fly 500 to 600 feet out and 200 to 300 feet up – clear visual and orientation maintained (interesting it is the same ratio as my 2 meter Radian at 2000 feet out & 1000 feet high with a satellite Rx– max for me). So I think he lost Rx control and the Champ fell out of the sky.

If the Champ has no throttle and Elev control it will tend to drop out of the sky. So I tried testing binding it with 40% throttle and Elev trim. When I turned off the radio, no throttle. Does it have a failsafe system in the DSMX Rx?

Wha' say you?
...
Oct 05, 2013, 11:26 AM
Scout CX | mCX2 | mSR | 120SR
North_of_49's Avatar
I'm surprised it would let you bind it without the throttle being off. Are you sure it did?
Oct 05, 2013, 11:43 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red.Sneakers
If the Champ has no throttle and Elev control it will tend to drop out of the sky.
I just tested this. Of course the motor turns off - do you want it to keep flying away???

I turned everything on, gave full elevator and rudder. When I shut off the radio the surfaces -snapped- back to -neutral-.

But 'drop,' no. CG and elevator trim should be set to -glide- with power off and no input. Half throttle or thereabouts means level flight, and more throttle = more lift = ascend.

Range is a Tx factor, not Rx. I have Futaba 8FG with Spectrum trainer port module. For DSM mode the module is turned on and the Futaba Tx is actually turned off to save battery power, so the plane 'hears' only the Spektrum module not the Futaba.

The one time I lost it in too much wind, I found it later and measured 1800', and no more than 100' up the whole way out. I had control all the way but at that distance could not see orientation any more so I killed he throttle and let go of the right stick and let it drop. [sigh]

I was very very lucky - it passed over a treed wilderness patch of a few acres, then over a plant nursery. It happened to land on a -road- in the nursery not the middle of acres of plants. However, it was in its wheels with no other damage! Meaning it -had- to have -glided- down to land. (((patting good little Champ on it's cowl LOL!!!)))


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