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Nov 13, 2009, 01:53 AM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
Discussion

Post Your Mikrokopter Parameter Settings


Please post your MK configuration and Parameter Settings here. If we have enough data to compare, it might help us all determine the best settings for our MK quads. As a start, I'll offer this table of my settings for several motor and prop combinations:



I've limited the table to the primary parameters that control the quad stability and vibration performance. If you think others should be listed, please speak up.

I'm currently using the FPV camera video and selecting one parameter at at time to adjust in flight while doing "impulse" movements in Pitch, Roll and Yaw. (I'm not using the soft mounted HD camera since it tends to suppress the vibrations) Here are four examples referenced in the chart including the best wind performance HD video :

Video 0 - Best Wind Performance (HD camera)

Video 1 - FPV Under damping

Video 2 - FPV Critical damping (by adjusting just Gyro-D)

Video 3 - Result after adjusting for best Gyro-P and Gyro-I (good descent and control but bad fast recurring vibrations)

I will keep this chart up to date with postings in this thread so that perhaps we can all gain some insight for optimizing the settings.

Thanks!
OMM
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 15, 2009 at 04:26 PM.
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Nov 13, 2009, 01:26 PM
Registered User
Great initiative Mike. You're video of the high frequency vibration looks like what I am looking at, but I have it over a wide range of gyro P and I settings. I haven't done too much with the gyro D of late, so I might want to try your best setting once the weather becomes flyable again. I have recently played a bit with the roll/tilt coupling and the one video testflight I could do with that seemed a lot better re the high freqency vibration so that may also be something to look at. I do want to upgrade to 0.76 first (after modifying the source code for my HEF4017 external circuit for camera roll and tilt compensation). Once I-ve done that I'll try and add some parameters as well.
Nov 14, 2009, 12:26 AM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur P.
Great initiative Mike. You're video of the high frequency vibration looks like what I am looking at, but I have it over a wide range of gyro P and I settings. I haven't done too much with the gyro D of late, so I might want to try your best setting once the weather becomes flyable again. I have recently played a bit with the roll/tilt coupling and the one video testflight I could do with that seemed a lot better re the high freqency vibration so that may also be something to look at. I do want to upgrade to 0.76 first (after modifying the source code for my HEF4017 external circuit for camera roll and tilt compensation). Once I-ve done that I'll try and add some parameters as well.
Thanks, Arthur!

I wondered about the roll/tilt coupling but I have no info on the function of that parameter. Do you know? I could certainly add it in as a column if you think it contributes. I would be interested even in your current parameters and quad configuration just to have another entry in the table.

I'm a little disappointed that no one has offered up any additional data. There are just so many combinations that it is almost impossible for one person to collect enough data to provide good insight into the relationships. I thought we might be able to take advantage of the many MK quad flyers and develop something that would help eveyone.

OMM
Nov 14, 2009, 05:27 PM
Registered User
[

I'm a little disappointed that no one has offered up any additional data. There are just so many combinations that it is almost impossible for one person to collect enough data to provide good insight into the relationships. I thought we might be able to take advantage of the many MK quad flyers and develop something that would help eveyone.

OMM[/QUOTE]

i think the problem with most of us is that there is no perfect combination. I'm still trying to find the perfect combination after 3 months. I think it's the combination between weight of the kopter and diameter of the props that matters the most. most of us want to make movies and pictures and the best movies are when we accelerate (most stable) so faster spinning of the props with slow acceleration in height. So if we want to build a quad for 1.3 kg (kopter and video equipment), just take motors and props that can carry 1.6 kg max total weight. Less time to fly, but more stable, i think.

just an idea
Nov 14, 2009, 10:23 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasperke
......So if we want to build a quad for 1.3 kg (kopter and video equipment), just take motors and props that can carry 1.6 kg max total weight. Less time to fly, but more stable, i think.

just an idea
Hi Kasperke

I've also heard this from Brashley (who I respect as one of the most knowledgeable people on MK parameters). The APC1238 props and 2217-20 motors flying at my current 65 oz AUW has a higher margin than the 20% you recommend. It is actually much more than 50% since the motor/prop combination can easily do 40 ounces on the test stand. Here is a sample (no post processing deshake) of how it is doing with the FPV system and HD camera using the last parameters listed in the table:



Not too bad but I'll admit that it is not quite as good as the 2213-22 motors with EPP1245 props.

Again, my hope is that by sharing parameters used for quads of different sizes and configurations eventually relationships will emerge that will help everyone. For example, we may find that when changing a prop from a 3.8 pitch to a 5.0 pitch, parameter X should be increased (or something more complex like ratio X to Y should be increased).

OMM
Nov 15, 2009, 12:31 AM
MultiRotor Jedi
simonjardine's Avatar
OK Mike, I have lots of different parameters for different conditions.
Now firstly it might be me but did you make that excel sheet downloadable? I cant add data to the picture. I think these parameters will help.
Although they are suited for the Graupner props,11x5 you might just get lucky.
Basically i think the Gyro PID is an easy one to play with. This is what i have learnt playing around with the settings.

P = more of this requires more movement on the stick for it to move in any direction.

I = more of this gives oscillations, makes the QC level out quicker

D = (my findings are some what different from most) Some people set this to 0 to stop vibration. (especially on the decent)

G.P.S hold the stock settings work well however increasing the P up to 130 will hold the MK in windy conditions, if there is no wind the QC will wander fighting for a position for nothing!
So for g.p.s = P130 I=90 and d=90. Try those when the wind is a blowing and watch the MK stay put.
Hope these help, dont forget that changing the Gyro PID will also effect your G.P.S.
Altitude hold, now this is where i am hoping someone will thank me, the weight of my QC is 1.2kg frame size is 40cm from motor to centre.
Try these.
MinGas=125
P=6
Barometric-D=120
Z-ACC-Effect=5
Gain=3

I will also post 2 full sets of parameters.
IMPORTANT
I fly X, NO MATTER please hold the alt key whilst pressing setting tab, and change the mixing to X configuration, (even if it is selected already)

Hope this helps someone.
Simon
Download attachments, remove .txt and replace with .mkp. Open MKtool and load the new parameter.
Nov 15, 2009, 01:47 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonjardine
OK Mike, I have lots of different parameters for different conditions.
Now firstly it might be me but did you make that excel sheet downloadable? I cant add data to the picture. I think these parameters will help....
Thanks Simon!

Yes, it is just a picture which I am updating as people post since I don't think this message board provides an interactive option.

I put your data in the chart but please verify the motor. I think that is the one you are using. Also, is 1200 grams really your All Up Weight with battery, camera, etc?? And would your call your hovering vibration/stability as Excellent? I will update the chart based on your reply.

I'm sure the extra info on GPS and Altitude hold will be very much appreciated by people that use those features.

OMM
Nov 15, 2009, 02:10 AM
MultiRotor Jedi
simonjardine's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Thanks Simon!

Yes, it is just a picture which I am updating as people post since I don't think this message board provides an interactive option.

I put your data in the chart but please verify the motor. I think that is the one you are using. Also, is 1200 grams really your All Up Weight with battery, camera, etc?? And would your call your hovering vibration/stability as Excellent? I will update the chart based on your reply.

I'm sure the extra info on GPS and Altitude hold will be very much appreciated by people that use those features.

OMM
Motor is correct wight is 1178grams. including fpv equipment and 2600 3 cell. Hover = 2 goods.
I will also post a video unprocessed the same as you did and see what i come up with.
Great idea by the way, although i think most people tend to stick with the default settings, because they just work well.
Thanks Mike,
Simon
Out of interest how long does your QC hover for with 1700grams?
What battery are you using?

p.s the above params do not include a camera, camera mount or landing gear (hence the light weight)
Last edited by simonjardine; Nov 15, 2009 at 02:14 AM. Reason: question
Nov 15, 2009, 04:03 AM
Registered User
I-m not exactly sure how the yaw-coupling works. My understanding it is intended to avoid the MK being off balance after flying a turn. What I suspect is that wind causing something of a yaw and roll may cause the routine to respond and that the response may result in "vibration". What is interesting, looking at the default settings for 0.76g, is the very wide range of the YawCorrection value (1 in sports mode, 70 or so in Beginner.

I-ve just upgraded now to my "0.76g-Arthur P" but won't be able to do any further flight tests probably for another week or so in view of weather forecasts. I'll be starting with the default values, but with my modified motorsmoothing using a value of 3 or 4 for the downward motorsmoothing steps (i.e. motor steps up default to 50% to target, down to about 66% or 75% to target). First want to see if the changes to 0.76g may already have resulted in improvement.

Not my own parameters, but Specky, one of the active aerial photogaphers over there, posted his current 0.76g settings in the MK forum this week:

Quote:
[Setup]
Name=flight 2; IniVersion=3; GlobalConfig=235; GlobalConfig2=2
[Channels]
Nick=3; Roll=2; Gas=1; Gier=4; Poti_1=5; Poti_2=6; Poti_3=8; Poti_4=7
[Stick]
Nick_Roll-P=8; Nick_Roll-D=16; Gier-P=6; ExternalControl=0
[Altitude]
Setpoint=251; MinGas=30; P=10; Barometric-D=30; Z-ACC-Effect=30; Gain=15; HoverVariation=5; GPS_Z=64; StickNeutralPoint=0
[Gyro]
P=100; I=120; D=5; Gier_P=100; Gier_I=120; DynamicStability=50; ACC_Gyro-Factor=27; ACC_Gyro-Compensation=32; DriftCompensation=0; Main-I=16
[Others]
MinGas=8; MaxGas=230; Compass-Effect=128; UnderVoltage=35; NotGas=35; NotGasTime=20
[User]
Parameter_1=0; Parameter_2=0; Parameter_3=0; Parameter_4=0; Parameter_5=0; Parameter_6=0; Parameter_7=0; Parameter_8=0
[Camera]
ServoNickControl=254; ServoNickCompensation=55; ServoNickMin=60; ServoNickMax=210; ServoRollControl=100; ServoRollCompensation=40; ServoRollMin=0; ServoRollMax=250; ServoInvert=0; ServoNickRefreshRate=6
[Loop]
Config=0; GasLimit=50; StickThreshold=90; LoopHysteresis=50; TurnOverNick=78; TurnOverRoll=78
[Coupling]
YawPosFeedback=90; NickRollFeedback=80; YawCorrection=70
[Output]
J16_Bitmask=95; J16_Timing=30; J17_Bitmask=243; J17_Timing=30; WARN_J16_Bitmask=170; WARN_J17_Bitmask=170
[NaviCtrl]
GPS_ModeControl=253; GPS_Gain=100; GPS_P=90; GPS_I=90; GPS_D=90; GPS_P_Limit=75; GPS_I_Limit=75; GPS_D_Limit=75; GPS_Acc=0; GPS_MinSat=6; GPS_StickThreshold=8; GPS_WindCorrection=90; GPS_SpeedCompensation=30; GPS_MaxRadius=100; GPS_AngleLimit=100; GPS_PH_Login_Time=4
Nov 15, 2009, 04:49 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonjardine
Out of interest how long does your QC hover for with 1700grams?
What battery are you using?

p.s the above params do not include a camera, camera mount or landing gear (hence the light weight)
I get 12 minutes of flying time with the Rhino 4900 mAh battery for the 1700 gram system using the 2213-22 and 1045 props.

The 2217-20 and 1238 props does much better - even with a higher weight of 1840 grams it flies for 13 minutes. My batteries are now over a year old so there may be a little falloff in performance but I don't think it is very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur P.
I-m not exactly sure how the yaw-coupling works. My understanding it is intended to avoid the MK being off balance after flying a turn. What I suspect is that wind causing something of a yaw and roll may cause the routine to respond and that the response may result in "vibration". What is interesting, looking at the default settings for 0.76g, is the very wide range of the YawCorrection value (1 in sports mode, 70 or so in Beginner.
Most interesting. I did try putting the nick/roll coupling on the pot and watched the fpv camera for any effects with change. I did not notice any. I think the vibration in Video 3 may be from a resonance (which I have now corrected) in my cross brace used for the FPV camera. Also, the low light of the near dark run must have had the camera shutter open longer than normal which amplified the effect. But I can still see the vibration - just not as dramatic as the example.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur P.
...Not my own parameters, but Specky, one of the active aerial photogaphers over there, posted his current 0.76g settings in the MK forum this week:
Thanks! I went to that forum and got what I think are his spacing, motors and prop info. I started to order the data starting with prop size since I think that has one of the biggest impacts to the parameters. I also included a reference video showing what I think is the one of the best performances achieved for an MK in wind. Unfortunately it was with the EPP1045 props which are just not safe to fly because of the potential for in-flight fatique breakage.

OMM
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 15, 2009 at 04:55 PM.
Nov 16, 2009, 01:26 AM
Registered User
FredericG's Avatar
Mike, this is again an excellent initiative!

I think it would be good to add which SW version has been used, and in case of Arthur's version, what factor for the motor smoothing function.
I am also wondering if the HW version is not important; 1.3 and ME have different sensors-inputs

Frederic
Nov 17, 2009, 03:00 AM
Registered User
Hello,
here are my parameters (in fact standard 0.74 MK "beginner" parameters ):

EPP1045
310mm
KDA 2022L
920 grams (without HD camera)
1040 grams (with HD camera)
Gyro-P 100
Gyro-I 120
Gyro-D 5
Dynamic Stability 50
Acc/Gyro Compensation 32
Main I 16
Hoover Excellent
Wind/Descent Poor
Nov 17, 2009, 03:04 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredericG
Mike, this is again an excellent initiative!

I think it would be good to add which SW version has been used, and in case of Arthur's version, what factor for the motor smoothing function.
I am also wondering if the HW version is not important; 1.3 and ME have different sensors-inputs

Frederic
I agree Frederic , I also notice that FC ME and 1.3 perform quite differently (ME more stable) with the same frame/motors/prop/parameters , but it could be that my FC 1.3 suffered from some crashes
Nov 17, 2009, 03:44 AM
Registered User
FredericG's Avatar
Another question:
What procedure do you use to tune the settings? The only clear procedure I am aware of is this: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3824

Frederic
Nov 17, 2009, 06:30 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredericG
Another question:
What procedure do you use to tune the settings? The only clear procedure I am aware of is this: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3824

Frederic
Frederic,

Thanks for that reference. I've had several email exchanges with Brashley where he outlined similar info but I was unaware that he did a post. In any event, he has very good insight on PID. By the way, you'll notice that he does not make reference to the Gyro-D parameter. He mentioned to me that although he has not looked into it very much, he thought that it acted like a break when the MK wants to change angles quickly.

The other approach I've been looking at is the Ziegler-Nichols method. Dr. Egan over on the UAVP thread setup a test fixture to try and tune his quad:

http://www.eganfamily.id.au/Family/G...er/Tuning.html

I try not to stray too far from the Ziegler-Nichols starting ratios, remembering to do the translations from the Gyro reference to standard PID reference as defined by Brashley. It might even be possible to derive the oscillation period from the FPV video without using a test fixture.

I will add a column for the SW/HW version.

Lucamaxco: Thanks for your data. I was wondering if anyone had the numbers used with KDA 2022L motors. I will update the chart later today.

OMM


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