Radiant charger, HV spike charging for NiCd/NiMh/Lead Acid - RC Groups
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Sep 09, 2009, 04:07 AM
Bedini charger admirer
Discussion

Radiant charger, HV spike charging for NiCd/NiMh/Lead Acid


This circuit is not intended to charge any Lithium based battery. The output (the charging part) of the circuit may have voltage exceeded your component specification, don't connect it to any semiconductor.


Edit:
The efficiency of the circuit is currently 60%, mentioned in page 5 of this thread.


The primary component of the circuit is the coil. The basic component are a coil, a diode and a switch. The switch can be mechanical (the best) or solid state. The circuit shown here are just one version of many version available.

This charger design which shared by John Bedini which do not use the common direct method of charging. It charge the battery with voltage generated by a coil that has it's current shut off. The voltage that generate by coil collpase current has slightly different property than the normal one. It can charge the battery with less heating and it may increase battery voltage too.

My 6 chinese NiCd batteries now has voltage above 1.35V after fully charged in 8 hour without heating up during charging. It become resetted again to 1.2V whenever I charge them with my chinese charger.

The attachment is what I use to charge my batteries. It can also be hundred other variation of circuit can be found at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11

find joule thief, bedini solid state, or radiant charger.


The transformer impedance/resistance and the source voltage will decide the output of this circuit. For references, I use 1.5 ohm part of the transformer and use 12V source for charging 12V Gel batteries which then charged to 15 V. To charge AA batteries I put two of them in series and also put a 12 V lamp in serie to reduce the voltage.

Experiment it your own but becarefull with the ouput part. If the load resistance is too high the voltage may increase double of battery voltage. Use 6V source or use more than 9 ohm part of the transformer.

The battery would not get hot when charged with this circuit, so check your battery charging progress with voltmeter. For safety reason limit the charging to 1.4V for 1.2V batteries. It can charge zinc carbon or alkaline batteries but make sure to monitor it or it can make the battery goes puff.


If you don't want to make it yourself there is $400 commercial version by the guy who share this nice technology at
http://www.r-charge.com/rc-1au.html
Last edited by sucahyo; May 15, 2010 at 12:25 AM.
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Sep 10, 2009, 02:51 AM
"MAYONNAISE"
Acetronics's Avatar
Hi, Sucahyo

This is one more version of the pulse-charging theory ... cracking crystals that fix around the batt electrodes ...

and note it doen't charge Zinc-carbon or Alkaline batteries, but only " clean " their electrodes , permitting the chemical materials inside the battery to give all the current they can ...

No Miracle ...

Alain
Sep 10, 2009, 08:51 AM
7000mw of raw power!
rich smith's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I read some usefull tips here about wounding a motor so I would like to share my knowledge too.

There is a charger design shared by John Bedini which do not use the common direct method of charging. It charge the battery with voltage generated by a coil that has it's current shut off. The voltage that generate by coil collpase current has slightly different property than the normal one. It can charge the battery with less heating and it may increase battery voltage too.

My 6 chinese NiCd batteries now has voltage above 1.35V after fully charged in 8 hour without heating up during charging. It become resetted again to 1.2V whenever I charge them with my chinese charger.

The attachment is what I use to charge my batteries. It can also be hundred other variation of circuit can be found at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11

find joule thief, bedini solid state, or radiant charger.


The transformer impedance/resistance and the source voltage will decide the output of this circuit. For references, I use 1.5 ohm part of the transformer and use 12V source for charging 12V Gel batteries which then charged to 15 V. To charge AA batteries I put two of them in series and also put a 12 V lamp in serie to reduce the voltage.

Experiment it your own but becarefull with the ouput part. If the load resistance is too high the voltage may increase double of battery voltage. Use 6V source or use more than 9 ohm part of the transformer.

The battery would not get hot when charged with this circuit, so check your battery charging progress with voltmeter. For safety reason limit the charging to 1.4V for 1.2V batteries. It can charge zinc carbon or alkaline batteries but make sure to monitor it or it can make the battery goes puff.


If you don't want to make it yourself there is $400 commercial version by the guy who share this nice technology at
http://www.r-charge.com/rc-1au.html
Sucahyo,

You have to be careful of the sharks over in that other forum area. When they smell blood there will be a feeding frenzy. It ain't so bad here in DIY.

I found your experiment interesting. It appears to be a simple boost mode switching supply circuit. And they are right that there's nothing revolutionary about the circuit or charging those cells to 1.4v. Also note that charging alkaline or carbon cells is not particularly effective.

While it seems you could use a little more education in state of the art I don't think the hostile response to your other thread was warranted. I don't think you were trying to spam or sell anything. Maybe just misled.

I apologize for some of my compatriots and hope it doesn't discourage you from further participation in the group. There are some intelligent helpful individuals here too and much to learn.
Sep 10, 2009, 09:23 PM
Bedini charger admirer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetronics
Hi, Sucahyo

This is one more version of the pulse-charging theory ... cracking crystals that fix around the batt electrodes ...

and note it doen't charge Zinc-carbon or Alkaline batteries, but only " clean " their electrodes , permitting the chemical materials inside the battery to give all the current they can ...

No Miracle ...

Alain
Thank you. What is the temperature of the battery when being charged with this kind of device?

Is it safe to charge using usual pulse charging all the time? Because many replicator of radiant charger replace their charger with radiant charger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
Sucahyo,

You have to be careful of the sharks over in that other forum area. When they smell blood there will be a feeding frenzy. It ain't so bad here in DIY.

I found your experiment interesting. It appears to be a simple boost mode switching supply circuit. And they are right that there's nothing revolutionary about the circuit or charging those cells to 1.4v. Also note that charging alkaline or carbon cells is not particularly effective.

While it seems you could use a little more education in state of the art I don't think the hostile response to your other thread was warranted. I don't think you were trying to spam or sell anything. Maybe just misled.

I apologize for some of my compatriots and hope it doesn't discourage you from further participation in the group. There are some intelligent helpful individuals here too and much to learn.
Thank you. It seems my other thread got suspended. And yes I just want to share my knowledge, and it seems my knowledge is insufficient.

I don't realize that my battery can usually charge up to 1.4V. I don't know that it is common for that because the charger that I bought do not charge to this level even after heating it up for hours. In other hand the radiant charger do not make the battery heat up. If it became warmer it means it already full.

And you are right about switching application. The circuit is actually used to drive a CFL, see attachment. Isn't it nice to have electricity without the shock. I wonder why electric company do not use this kind of arrangement for home. No one die because of electric shock if they apply this.


I rather surprise by the post by supergps that mention that every Lipo charger use coil collapse current since this technology is patented, and I don't find this info on Lipo charger website. The wiki page mention that "It is important to note that trickle charging is not acceptable for lithium batteries", while the characteristic of coil collapse current is HV depend on switching mechanism, maybe rather high if mechanical switch is used.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_polymer_battery#Charging

If this is true then NiCd and NiMh would not get hot if charged with LiPo charger. Is it?

The main component of radiant charger is the coil. If this coil being switched with either mechanical or solid state means, reversing current which usually safe guard by protection diode in motor can be utilized to charge a battery or to light up something that require HV. For any circuit to be called radiant charger it has to has coil that being switched.

I fried a couple of computer fan chip when I connecting them in series with my batteries. I keep forgot that if the load has high resistance, the voltage increse, and this fried the fan controller. Many failed to build the 555 version because they start at low frequency and 50% duty cycle, where the coil HV feedback kill either the 555 or the transistor. I don't think we can do voltage limit at the output of radiant charger since the HV output may even bypass blocking diode, based from my experience when using mechnical switch though.

Here is a scope shot taken by successful replicator which illustrate the short lived HV part:


by Sepiroth at http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...d-spike-2.html


Is there a circuit in this forum that utilize a coil. I don't see one? The link posted bellow are not:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130567
http://www.shdesigns.org/lionchg.html
http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net...um-charger.htm

any home made Lithium Polymer charger I search at google are not radiant charger too.
Last edited by sucahyo; Sep 10, 2009 at 11:08 PM.
Sep 11, 2009, 07:02 AM
Registered User
Could you explain the schematic some more. I have some stubborn NI-CD that dont hold a charge any more and I want to try your charger to maybe bring them back to life.
Sep 11, 2009, 08:58 AM
7000mw of raw power!
rich smith's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I don't realize that my battery can usually charge up to 1.4V. I don't know that it is common for that because the charger that I bought do not charge to this level even after heating it up for hours. In other hand the radiant charger do not make the battery heat up. If it became warmer it means it already full..
No matter how Ni batteries are charged they always start to heat up when full. And they will all go up to 1.4v, 1.45v or even 1.5v when freshly charged. "radiant" charger and cheap chinese chargers are not different. You need to measure again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I rather surprise by the post by supergps that mention that every Lipo charger use coil collapse current since this technology is patented, and I don't find this info on Lipo charger website.
Most chargers use "coil collapse" (switching) technology. Consumer units that run off 120/240vac or 12vdc knock it down (buck) to the 2-3vdc needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
If this is true then NiCd and NiMh would not get hot if charged with LiPo charger. Is it?
They will always heat up. If current is high enough you can feel it. I charge Ni cells often with my Tenergy Lipo charger and take them off when they get hot. It is foolish and dangerous to try charging lipo with a Ni charger though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I keep forgot that if the load has high resistance, the voltage increse, and this fried the fan controller.
It's true that voltage of a switcher skyrockets with no load. Most use feedback from the output to vary duty cycle for voltage regulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
Is there a circuit in this forum that utilize a coil. I don't see one?
There are thousands of circuits available for these type supplies. You need to search "buck" and "boost" regulator on RCG and Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
any home made Lithium Polymer charger I search at google are not radiant charger too.
Nearly all of them use "radiant" technology. Note that lipo batteries require much more complicated charging algorithm and the power supply is not an important part. Ni batteries use "peak" charging while lithium use "CCCV" (constant current/constant voltage). Read up on these.

Bedini is a con artist and the word "radiant" is a joke. This is what got you in trouble in the other thread so I think you need to learn more about battery charging and switching regulators. RCG is a good place for this.
Sep 11, 2009, 08:30 PM
Bedini charger admirer
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEX_BZ
Could you explain the schematic some more. I have some stubborn NI-CD that dont hold a charge any more and I want to try your charger to maybe bring them back to life.
The principle is to charge the battery with current that flow from the coil, not from the source. Once the coil get it's power disconnected it will send back a reverse voltage with higher voltage than the source. There is excelent article in wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_diode

What we are trying to do is to utilize those flyback voltage to charge the battery. Any timer circuit with any transistor that can do switching will do, but you must do it at low duty cycle around 12.5% and at rather high frequency (mine is around 2000Hz) to prevent too much flyback voltage that can kill the transistor and the timer circuit.

The coil impedance will determine how much power will be used to charge the battery. It is better to start from high impedance like 9ohm or so and start using lower impedance if the battery do not get hot at all and the charging current is too low. Detect the charging by metering the battery. The voltmeter should detect a slight increase of voltage while charging. The safe limit is battery voltage + 20%, what I use is battery voltage + 3%

For easier change of impedance, use 3V to 15V transformer, maybe 250mA version. use only the low voltage part and ignore the HV part.

What I use is 9V part of Motorola Fax Modem adapter 230V 50Hz, 9V 1.9A. To charge two NiCd in series I add another load in series. It should be 12V lamp or similar but I use an electrolysis cell so I can see it without blinding me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
No matter how Ni batteries are charged they always start to heat up when full. And they will all go up to 1.4v, 1.45v or even 1.5v when freshly charged. "radiant" charger and cheap chinese chargers are not different. You need to measure again.
I already tried a couple of time, charging with radiant charger do not make my battery hot, make my kid mini4wd go faster than my chinese charger. For temperature there is a huge difference, the chinese charger already heat up the battery at the first hour and continue to do so. You can't use the "touching to see if it's charging" method in radiant charger since at the first hour it don't feel difference compared to ambient temperature.

The photo that I post at my other thread is taken after an hour of charging. Rising the battery voltage from 1.25V to 1.35V. I don't notice the temperature difference of the battery with ambient temperature.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show....php?t=1108394


Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
Most chargers use "coil collapse" (switching) technology. Consumer units that run off 120/240vac or 12vdc knock it down (buck) to the 2-3vdc needed.
The switching is not used to change voltage, but to utilize the flyback voltage. If you see my circuit, I don't use the secondary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
They will always heat up. If current is high enough you can feel it. I charge Ni cells often with my Tenergy Lipo charger and take them off when they get hot. It is foolish and dangerous to try charging lipo with a Ni charger though.
Thanks for the warning. If the Ni cells still heat up then lipo charger definitely not using radiant charger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
There are thousands of circuits available for these type supplies. You need to search "buck" and "boost" regulator on RCG and Google.

Nearly all of them use "radiant" technology. Note that lipo batteries require much more complicated charging algorithm and the power supply is not an important part. Ni batteries use "peak" charging while lithium use "CCCV" (constant current/constant voltage). Read up on these.
Ok, I just read some info in batteryuniversity. Interesting site. I just learn that NiCd has low internal resistance compared to NiMh or Alkaline. I just measure my motor at stopped condition and it draw 3Amp (2.5Vx3Amp = 7.5Watt). Maybe the ABC alkaline is just not good enough at this amp that it is slower than my NiCd.

Buck and boost regulator coil is not used to charge, it is used to change voltage. For a charger can be called radiant charger it has to utilize the coil current to charge. I attach where the charging part supposed to be placed in order to call it radiant charger in a switching schematic. just for illustration, I don't know if this dangerous or not.
circuit taken from
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Proje...ing-Supply.htm

I also attach another example from wiki where I add the place for the radiantly charged battery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck–boost_converter


Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
Bedini is a con artist and the word "radiant" is a joke. This is what got you in trouble in the other thread so I think you need to learn more about battery charging and switching regulators. RCG is a good place for this.
No, I believe what Bedini shared is real. And I would never use my chinese charger as it is now and plan to convert it to radiant charger. If this thread got suspended too then I guess I should never share it to anyone around where I live too, which maybe a good thing for prolonging my kids smile on Auldey track here .

If you really think it is a myth, is it that hard to build one? Did anyone who said that already build one?
Last edited by sucahyo; Sep 11, 2009 at 10:25 PM.
Sep 12, 2009, 04:37 AM
Registered User
something like this?
Sep 12, 2009, 05:41 AM
7000mw of raw power!
rich smith's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I already tried a couple of time, charging with radiant charger do not make my battery hot, make my kid mini4wd go faster than my chinese charger. For temperature there is a huge difference, the chinese charger already heat up the battery at the first hour and continue to do so.

If the Ni cells still heat up then lipo charger definitely not using radiant charger.
ALL Ni batteries heat up when charged. If charged at .1c or higher you can feel it with your finger. With less current you will not feel it but it is there. It just takes longer.

If your chinese charger fails to leave cells at 1.4v it is defective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
Buck and boost regulator coil is not used to charge, it is used to change voltage. For a charger can be called radiant charger it has to utilize the coil current to charge. I attach where the charging part supposed to be placed in order to call it radiant charger in a switching schematic.
Your "radiant" charger is a common boost switcher. It is not magic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
just for illustration, I don't know if this dangerous or not.
circuit taken from
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Proje...ing-Supply.htm
This is not a buck or a boost but is old fashioned transformer type with primary and secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
I also attach another example from wiki where I add the place for the radiantly charged battery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck–boost_converter
This is not a buck or a boost type either, it is buck/boost which is completely different. Until you learn the difference between buck, boost, and buck/boost, nobody will take you seriously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
No, I believe what Bedini shared is real.

If you really think it is a myth, is it that hard to build one? Did anyone who said that already build one?
I have built many "radiant" chargers exactly the same as yours. Some were simpler, some more complicated. It is called a boost switching supply.

It is starting to sound like you are Bedini or are in love with him. It is time for you to open your ears and benefit from those who are more knowledgeable than yourself. We are only trying to help.
Sep 13, 2009, 09:25 PM
Bedini charger admirer
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEX_BZ
something like this?
Yes. Usually we have to wound the coil ourself but I prefer to use available transformer as a coil. The source battery has to exceed the 555 operating voltage, I guess you need at least 6 Volt.

For the number of battery that can be charged depend on the amount of current passing the coil, if it is large it can charge more battery. This has to be find out by trial and error though. Mine has 0.3A at 12V without load and I have to use some additional load in series with the battery to prevent the power supply to auto shut off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
ALL Ni batteries heat up when charged. If charged at .1c or higher you can feel it with your finger. With less current you will not feel it but it is there. It just takes longer.
I damage my amp meter when measuring voltage at the flyback part so I never measure it again. But I compare it with how much charge the charger can put to the battery and definitely the one utilizing flyback voltage (bedini) do not make the battery anywhere near as hot as the chinese charger and much faster on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
If your chinese charger fails to leave cells at 1.4v it is defective.
Even if it can cook the battery? I see. I though what charger do is pushing voltage in the battery and my chinese battery certainly does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
Your "radiant" charger is a common boost switcher. It is not magic.
I don't agree, common charger do not use flyback voltage. Please give me an example circuit that utilize one, since the circuit I found in the link I post previously certainly do not utilize it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
This is not a buck or a boost but is old fashioned transformer type with primary and secondary.

This is not a buck or a boost type either, it is buck/boost which is completely different. Until you learn the difference between buck, boost, and buck/boost, nobody will take you seriously.
I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
I have built many "radiant" chargers exactly the same as yours. Some were simpler, some more complicated. It is called a boost switching supply.

It is starting to sound like you are Bedini or are in love with him. It is time for you to open your ears and benefit from those who are more knowledgeable than yourself. We are only trying to help.
Well, I do admire him. And since I already confirm positive result and more, I trust him. I doubt that what you build should be called radiant.

Not any circuit with coil can be called radiant. To be called radiant there has to be a spike followed by induction current in the charging part, something that usually thrown away or safeguarded.

Flyback voltage also exist in motor controller circuit too. This flyback voltage can be utilized to charge the battery. I attach an example of brushed motor controller from:
http://www.webx.dk/rc/ecs2b.htm

There is a protection diode in the circuit to prevent the flyback voltage from damaging the FET. We can use it to charge a battery. We connect charged battery negative to positive line and charged battery positive to diode cathode. After modification it become radiant charger, there is switch, diode and motor as coil. Would you call it boost switching supply?

I also attach another variance of radiant charger. It use relay, I don't believe this can be called boost switching supply. On this mechanical version anyone should not connect the charging part to electronics!


I also trying to help even with my limited knowledge. I already test this and got satisfying result. If this is just considered a myth I really hope that this idea being tested first before concluding. If you already think that what you have now is already radiant circuit, please show me the circuit diagram since we may have different understanding. What you call radiant may not be radiant.
Last edited by sucahyo; Sep 14, 2009 at 04:39 AM.
Sep 14, 2009, 06:53 AM
7000mw of raw power!
rich smith's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo
There is a protection diode in the circuit to prevent the flyback voltage from damaging the FET. We can use it to charge a battery. We connect charged battery negative to positive line and charged battery positive to diode cathode. After modification it become radiant charger, there is switch, diode and motor as coil. Would you call it boost switching supply?
Actually it is called "protection" or "clamping" diode and as you mention it's main purpose is to prevent damage. Also as you notice part of the energy in these circuits can be shunted back to the battery through the drive circuit. I don't know if it can be called "charging" the battery but certainly recovers energy that might otherwise be wasted. The underlying principles are exactly the same as those in a switching supply just as those in your "radiant" charger are.

I will dig up some of the simpler switching supplies I've designed and built when time allows and you should recognize the similarity.
Sep 14, 2009, 09:34 PM
Bedini charger admirer
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich smith
I will dig up some of the simpler switching supplies I've designed and built when time allows and you should recognize the similarity.
Thank you, I really appreaciate it.

I don't think we can use that flyback voltage to charge the source battery because:
- charging while loading damage the battery
- the HV induction part will be lost if not used directly.

Another characteristic of utilization of flyback voltage are:
- high impedance load will charge at higher voltage than low impedance load
- battery will receive high voltage spike followed by low voltage
- low impedance load will increase power consumption more than high impedance load. In my case 0.3A with no load (no protection diode), more than 0.6A when charging 12V battery

since the empty battery has high impedance, it will be charged with higher voltage at first, after it get more charge the charge voltage will be lowered and the charge current will be increased. For dead battery the voltage may increase up to 20% battery voltage before the battery start to receive charge which then reduce the voltage to it's normal voltage.
Sep 15, 2009, 09:15 PM
Bedini charger admirer
Here is video showing how charging voltage change in radiant charger. The battery is SLA 12V battery from an UPS. The charge voltage start at around 19V initially. It will gradually decrease to some value when the battery start to take some charge. It will gradually increase after that when the battery take more charge (not shown on video). I never know radiant charger circuit which utilize voltage controller.

Behaviour of radiant charger charging 12V SLA (3 min 17 sec)
Sep 15, 2009, 11:52 PM
Registered User
This is really nothing new. It is a variation of pulse charging to which many patents were applied for in the last twenty years. People have been experimenting with flyback desulfator circuits for many years. In fact, there is an article by Alastair Couper on this very subject in the June/July 2000 of Home Power magazine.

If you understand lead acid (including SLA) battery’s failure mode due to sulfation of the plates, you will see why these typical circuits start with high voltage during the initial charge cycle as the battery internal resistance is high due to sulfated plates. As the insulating crystals get gradually dissolved back into the electrolytes, the resistance drop and the battery starts to take on a normal charge. If you were to measure the peak pulse instead of using your dc meter, they can be as high as 50 to 70 volts. There are some merits in reconditioning lead acid batteries using this method. But it is limited to batteries that have not been damaged due to other factors such is lost or contaminated electrolytes, plate/separator damage, etc.

That being said, the typical failure of NiCd cells are due to dendritic shorting of the electrodes which can’t be reversed by this method. A high current pulse can be applied to temporally “burn” off these shorting crystal structures. However, once a cell has its separator membrane punctured in this way by dendrites, this fix will not last long and the cell usually will revert to a shorted state soon after.
Sep 16, 2009, 03:30 AM
Bedini charger admirer
Quote:
Originally Posted by druzara
This is really nothing new. It is a variation of pulse charging to which many patents were applied for in the last twenty years. People have been experimenting with flyback desulfator circuits for many years. In fact, there is an article by Alastair Couper on this very subject in the June/July 2000 of Home Power magazine.
I see. I wonder why this technology is not widespread and applied to replace common charger for NiCd and SLA?

Yesterday I charge six NiCd battery to 1.4V in 8 hour without making any of them get hot (I use more load in series with the battery now). It is weird if no one want this since charging NiCd without making them hot should make the battery life longer.

Maybe the principle is the same, but there are some difference. Bedini version do not meant to be self operating (non self powering). Also Bedini version utilize the coil collapse part directly. The HV spike is higher. But the drawback is the battery should not be connected to anything while charging because the HV spike may destroy solid state.

Attached are where the difference is in desulfator circuit.
Last edited by sucahyo; Sep 16, 2009 at 03:57 AM.


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