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May 05, 2010, 12:12 PM
Bit-Twiddler and Flyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralFailure
Hi Gary, I don't have enough time right now to address everything, but this one is very akward. If you can send me the par file (info@rcdeskpilot.com) I can check where the problem is and (hopefully) fix the par file for you without losing all your work. Davy
Actually, this is probably user error. I created a new sub-dir in the model directory. Copied my .x files and then all the extra files from the extra directory including the .par file etc. Renamed them all to pz-t28...

I tried opening the pz-t28.par file, which was the manually renamed extra.par and got an error.

Then I took a different route and created an extra.par derivative and called it pz-t28.par. RCDP editor puts all those files in the extra sub-dir not the pz-t28 sub-dir. So, if creating a derivative, perhaps asking for a sub-dir would be good, filled out as the original model sub-dir but allowing an overwrite.

-- ggunners

Update a little later:

OK, recreated the [Moments of Inertia] error, and make sure to click [Continue] and all is OK, do not click [Quit].

Error Message: Unhandled exception has occured in your application. If you click Continue, the application will ignore the error and attempt to continue. If you click Quit, the application will close immediately. Parameter is not valid.

Question: In the moments of inertia calculation, can we consider the wing to be about 1/10 the weight and the fuselage to be the rest of the AUW? It would seem to work with foamy parkflyers. In addition, I decided to use the average wing chord times the span as the wing area. Sometimes we can't take the model apart to get these numbers and need a basis for estimating.
Last edited by ggunners; May 05, 2010 at 12:46 PM.
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May 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
Registered User
GeneralFailure's Avatar
Okay, I finally have some time to reply. My apologies in front for this terribly long message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamiyaCowboy
i have had no problems so far, i deleted the old sim and installed new, i wondered if it is possible to install the new beta without un-installing the old.
You can install the new sim over the old but since some files have moved (namely the aircraft), some files will be left over, unused on your system wasting a few megabytes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malc C
However I guess if he did make your thread a sticky, some would say he would have to do the same for other sims developed in the same way, such as CV. But then you could argue that as users have to purchase CV it is more of a commercial product rather than a free product developed by forum member(s) for forum members.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eves
To Malc, GF and anyone else concerned...
If you want to follow up on the sticky thread idea, I would suggest a single sticky thread/post which listed...
1) Any and all simulators contained within the simulator section,
2) Each with a single link to their own home page and a link to one main thread within this forum if desired.
3) and possibly a brief unbiased description. (this could be left out)

I think this would be fair to all parties and most of all a sticky of this nature would provide most useful information for us users to find (without searching) an actual list of available simulators.
To be completely honest, my sim is kind of a commercial sim. Only the model is different: I hope to one day let advertisers pay instead of the users. So R/C Desk Pilot doesn't deserve a special treatment. But I think Eves idea would be pretty impartial; like the wikipedia article for RC flightsim that someone was kind enough to include R/C Desk Pilot on (thank you if you can read this).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eves
To GF, thanks for the update/beta... so far so good. well mostly.
One little oddity I noticed though... The channel controls seem a little touchy. The planes' reaction seems to be a little jerky at times. I did not experience this in the last version.

Edit: If this has anything to do with this, I also noticed... My logitech wingman controller causes the planes to slightly roll left and with my RF Elite controller the planes roll slightly to the right. This is with out touching the controls, center position on both rudder and ailerons. They flew straight and narrow before when I released the controls. I roll the opposite direction and it rolls back and continues. I changed nothing with my controllers in between or after uninstalling and reinstalling.

OK 2nd Edit: Playing with it some more I now see my two different controllers are not retaining their own channel settings. (note: they do use different setups/channel settings (which may account for the opposite roll directions) with RCdeskpilot, they seemed to work b4. I also have "inverted" unchecked now to respond properly with the latest version. )

Cheers
That's weird. No code has changed in that area. The sim has never saved control settings for multiple controllers. It uses the same channel assignments for all controllers (note-to-self: should add that). It could be two things: maybe the reinstall unchecked the 'expo' options on your controls, or a recalibration of your controllers might fix it (start - control panel - game controllers ....)
BTW. I haven't forgot about your scenery editor. Expect a PM one of these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
OK, using the manual helps a bit. I have to agree that manual entry of object positions would be a nice option. Sometimes the mouse resolution is not enough for proper placement. Also, 3 controls instead of 2 for placement would be awesome.
The XZ control is easiest to use with the top-side view (F2 key). Making it 3 buttons would be easy to do, but I'm still doubting: I would like to use the same control for the scenery editor. There it seems more logical to be able to drag an item across the scenery. Maybe I can use the CTRL key to restrict the movement to one axis? (just thinking out loud)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
Ripping apart an existing 3D model and then saving each piece as a directX file is a bit of work.
I know Unfortunately many programs (including metasequoia) don't export objects seperately to .X, it's just one big mesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
Have a few crashes. Half way through I clicked the [Moments of Inertia] button with a crash. Didn't save my work often enough. I know better. While testing, everyone, save your work often.
Thanks for the report, I looked in the code and removed a possible crash there. I'm not 100% sure that's the one you were seeing though (there might be more).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
Actually, this is probably user error. I created a new sub-dir in the model directory. Copied my .x files and then all the extra files from the extra directory including the .par file etc. Renamed them all to pz-t28...

I tried opening the pz-t28.par file, which was the manually renamed extra.par and got an error.

Then I took a different route and created an extra.par derivative and called it pz-t28.par. RCDP editor puts all those files in the extra sub-dir not the pz-t28 sub-dir. So, if creating a derivative, perhaps asking for a sub-dir would be good, filled out as the original model sub-dir but allowing an overwrite.
The 'variation of an existing aircraft' option will indeed copy an existing par file into the same folder. It is meant for variations of one model (like the electric/pure glider, or to create a micro model by simply changing scale+physics). I should explain that in the manual. I guess you wanted the opposite and copy only the physics part. I don't have that option yet... Good suggestion. One thing I was already planning to add someday is paint schemes by allowing a variation to alter the texture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
Question: In the moments of inertia calculation, can we consider the wing to be about 1/10 the weight and the fuselage to be the rest of the AUW? It would seem to work with foamy parkflyers. In addition, I decided to use the average wing chord times the span as the wing area. Sometimes we can't take the model apart to get these numbers and need a basis for estimating.
It really depends on the model. The problem with the moments of inertia is that distance from rotation axis counts double (actual squared), making it really difficult to estimate. When you have tapered wings you should probably take less than the average wing chord in the calculation. Like in the FMS editor you suggested earlier I could make the calculator more advanced, but I hope this will do for a first release. Of course you're right about the wing area, but it's a crucial parameter for the flight model, so I really need it.

Thanks for all your comments!
Davy
May 05, 2010, 02:59 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
So should I wait until there's an update to the Beta 1.3 to install this on my machine? It sounds like there are some bugs to be worked out.
May 05, 2010, 03:06 PM
Registered User
GeneralFailure's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looooeeee!
So should I wait until there's an update to the Beta 1.3 to install this on my machine? It sounds like there are some bugs to be worked out.
Most of the problems are related to the editor. You can always reinstall version 0.1.2 should you experience problems (after telling me about them ).

Davy
May 05, 2010, 03:24 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralFailure
Most of the problems are related to the editor. You can always reinstall version 0.1.2 should you experience problems (after telling me about them ).

Davy
That's the plan, I hope that it will load and play on my ancient machine, I'd consider it a success even if it only runs at 15 FPS. I'll keep you posted.

I guess I've got low expectations.. But hey I'm having a lot of fun converting over some of my models to Easyfly/AFP, not exactly high end simming, but I'm getting about 32FPS on this model with animated flight surfaces and prop animation.
May 05, 2010, 03:30 PM
Registered User
GeneralFailure's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looooeeee!
That's the plan, I hope that it will load and play on my ancient machine, I'd consider it a success even if it only runs at 15 FPS. I'll keep you posted.

I guess I've got low expectations.. But hey I'm having a lot of fun converting over some of my models to Easyfly/AFP, not exactly high end simming, but I'm getting about 32FPS on this model with animated flight surfaces and prop animation.
I've modified the sim to accept older graphics cards, but I'm not sure it'll do much good. If it doesn't work now on your system, I can't do much else except port the sim to DirectX 8, which is nearly impossible

Davy
May 05, 2010, 03:42 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
Yeah it's still doing the 'Switching to rasterizer' warning and failing to load. Is it because I don't have an actual Direct X 9C installation on my machine?

I downloaded the .Net improvements that you recommended, but I don't have an actual Direct X 9c folder in Program Files like my 900 MHz desk top machine has.

The laptop will not run Easyfly 3 either, which is odd as the older desktop does so quite handily. I can also run the latest HeliSim simulator on the desktop.

It just seems odd as the laptop should be running circles around the older machine. According to my Settings> Display Adapter> Advance> I'm running DirectX 9 B. What gives?
Last edited by Looooeeee!; May 05, 2010 at 03:58 PM.
May 05, 2010, 04:22 PM
Bit-Twiddler and Flyer
OK, Problems noted before had easy work arounds. Using the shift-key with the mouse
allows much easier placement of points and objects. So, no changes needed.
Just a little bit of a learning curve.

Bug: When adjusting Roll Damping, the number does not remain the same
after closing the dialog box and reopening it. You have to give about 1.8
times the number you want to get it close.

General flight: Not knowing what I do not know...
a) The model seems to nose down too quickly once the nose starts dropping.
What should I adjust to fix this?
b) Agressive movement of the elevator causes a very large slow down.
Does this mean I have too much pitch damping or is this a wing polar adjustment?
c) When throttling back at zero AofA, the model seems to float alot
instead of starting a gradual descent. Is this also a wing polar adjustment?

And here's the result of the first port, the ParkZone T-28 Trojan.



Any help getting it flying better would be appreciated.

-- ggunners
May 05, 2010, 04:42 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
I'll try to help with this as I run into some of these problems in other sims

Quote:
a) The model seems to nose down too quickly once the nose starts dropping.
What should I adjust to fix this?
Check horizontal tail volumes and stab AOA/lift values. Are you mistakenly using a non symetrical airfoil for the tail as this sounds like a classic increasing lift of the stab as the airspeed increases also it seems like you might have a bit of tail heaviness.

Quote:
b) Agressive movement of the elevator causes a very large slow down.
Does this mean I have too much pitch damping or is this a wing polar adjustment?
Too much modeled main wing airfoil drag per point of AOA, Does it do this inverted also? It could also be a bit too much fuselage area for the top and bottom surface? It also could be far too much angle of the moving tail surface.

Quote:
c) When throttling back at zero AofA, the model seems to float alot
instead of starting a gradual descent. Is this also a wing polar adjustment?
What is the Y, Z, position of the prop center? And is there any up, down or side thrust? This sounds like a prop not centered on the Z axis, which a lot of scale aircraft don't normally do, Most aerobatic aircraft will align the prop Z axis with the datum line or the actual aerodynamic center. Does RC Desk Pilot model prop airflow over tail surfaces and P-effect? Does RC Desk Pilot model ground effect? A low wing aircraft typically will "float' in ground effect at close to 'neutral' AoA within a near wing span distance of the ground.

Sorry to butt in, but I have some knowledge about these things.
May 06, 2010, 05:47 AM
Registered User
TamiyaCowboy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
OK, Problems noted before had easy work arounds. Using the shift-key with the mouse
allows much easier placement of points and objects. So, no changes needed.
Just a little bit of a learning curve.

Bug: When adjusting Roll Damping, the number does not remain the same
after closing the dialog box and reopening it. You have to give about 1.8
times the number you want to get it close.

General flight: Not knowing what I do not know...
a) The model seems to nose down too quickly once the nose starts dropping.
What should I adjust to fix this?
b) Agressive movement of the elevator causes a very large slow down.
Does this mean I have too much pitch damping or is this a wing polar adjustment?
c) When throttling back at zero AofA, the model seems to float alot
instead of starting a gradual descent. Is this also a wing polar adjustment?

And here's the result of the first port, the ParkZone T-28 Trojan.



Any help getting it flying better would be appreciated.

-- ggunners
i found model to be very twitchy in flight.

checked expo boxes for rudder and elevator

now flys like a dream, shut down on throttle she glides in with a little up elevator, yaw turns very nice. flying more smoother with the expo boxes checked. unchecking expo brings about the very weird twitchy flight and control as you mentioned.

first time flying this model, it is very nice smooth rog into flight, yaw is smooth and assertive when required, rolls are nice and smooth, vertical is smooth. i am still learning to fly and crash lots on sim but i can stay aloft for 20+ mins while messing around trying loops and inverted loops

inverted required a slight elevator , but this is due to my cyborg rumble pad (feels like the e-flite handsets) having pre dial down elevator other wise i found a new airframe to play with, i cannot leave it alone.

Paul
May 06, 2010, 08:13 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamiyaCowboy
i found model to be very twitchy in flight.
checked expo boxes for rudder and elevator ...
Checking the expo buttons seemed to fix or help with the controller problems I was having. Any model I tried rolled left or right and did not stabilize. It's much better now, it stabilizes and is less sensitive TY Cowboy

ggunners, I haven't tested your model yet, but will try later.

GF, I was mistaken when when I mentioned "saving the settings" for my different controllers. I got use to using one controller and must have never switched back before. Sorry, It must be old age setting in.
Idea: Since most computer controllers do not have trim and/or expo adjustments, variable "in game" software settings would be a nice feature for elevators, rudder, ailerons and old age.
I may just have to try hooking up a radio transmitter.

Cheers
Last edited by Eves; May 06, 2010 at 08:21 AM.
May 06, 2010, 09:26 AM
Bit-Twiddler and Flyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looooeeee!
I'll try to help with this as I run into some of these problems in other sims. <snip> Sorry to butt in, but I have some knowledge about these things.
Looooeeee!, Thanks for the feedback. I will check into the items you suggest and make changes where I can. Some are possible, others are not parameters of the sim.

My personal opinion is that the amount of throw which is called "Pitch Elevator Efficiency" may be too high or the "Pitch Damping" may be wrong. I am assuming that control surface size comes from the 3D object mapping.

It is also possible that changes to the Wing Polars will change the effects I am seeing. I will have to experiment. Perhaps just increasing the drag around zero AofA will have the desired effect for the floating condition.

-- ggunners

P.S. Here's a pdf file with a comparison of the RCDP Flight Parameters for the 6 models + the the new ones for everyone's perusal.
Last edited by ggunners; May 08, 2010 at 08:49 AM.
May 06, 2010, 10:51 AM
3dhs coolaid drinker
jstolp's Avatar
can this work with a ps3 controler and usb my dx5e isn't here yet
May 06, 2010, 11:26 AM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
Will this sim also flight model biplane wings?
May 06, 2010, 12:05 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunners
Looooeeee!, Thanks for the feedback. I will check into the items you suggest and make changes where I can. Some are possible, others are not parameters of the sim.

My personal opinion is that the amount of throw which is called "Pitch Elevator Efficiency" may be too high or the "Pitch Damping" may be wrong. I am assuming that control surface size comes from the 3D object mapping.

It is also possible that changes to the Wing Polars will change the effects I am seeing. I will have to experiment. Perhaps just increasing the drag around zero AofA will have the desired effect for the floating condition.

-- ggunners

P.S. I have attached a pdf file with a comparison of the RCDP Flight Parameters for the 6 models + the T28 for everyone's perusal.
Thanks that gives me a better idea of how the R/C_DP flight model works. assuming the wing and tail volumes are correct and the airfoils are fairly accurate, I'd say that turning down the throws or like Eves did, enable expo helps.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to try to capture the feel of the flight model of the Parkzone Vapor with Deskpilot.

This might be more than Davey wants to attempt with this sim. It's a given that most model aircraft are built many time more rigid than their full scale counterparts. And in that case the flight surfaces are also a lot more direct in action and less effected by airspeed.

Targetware's flight model has a couple of interesting parameters, max_airspeed for control surfaces, and a graduated response to airspeed, being more like a delay in milliseconds of a control surface under flight loads.

These coupled with the surface mass setting had all sorts of weird and odd effects. In my pioneering models with wing warping and large unbalanced control surfaces, you could actually get the control surfaces to take a half to nearly full second to come to full deflection, and the control action would become vague and wonky at really high, ( diving at WOT..) speeds. I believe that this is close to how the real scale aircraft worked.

If you've flown a Parkzone Vapor you know what I'm talking about. The whole model is an interesting display of flexibility. This is probably getting far too involved for Davey's sim but still it would be interesting, although the actual animation would involve mesh morphing and key framing, plus the FM modelling overhead for just the effects of turbulence....


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