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Jul 29, 2009, 06:53 AM
St. Boondock
FL Knifemaker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermlin'
Haha...oh what a crock.
I'm not even trained in the least, and I've fired a gun... 9/10 of my first shots with a firearm EVER were bullseyes. 2" bullseyes at 30 yards with a Glock.
Amazing!! Too bad they didn't have you to cover their 6's.
Jul 29, 2009, 07:00 AM
Magicsmoke maker
Inflexo's Avatar
I remember once I shot off a magazine of 9mm and then got the paper target back and thought "Awesome, I've got all of them in a bullseye cluster... what -really- happened was that two of them were on the mark and ripped up the center and the rest just missed the target entirely
Jul 29, 2009, 07:02 AM
St. Boondock
FL Knifemaker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pldaniels
I remember once I shot off a magazine of 9mm and then got the paper target back and thought "Awesome, I've got all of them in a bullseye cluster... what -really- happened was that two of them were on the mark and ripped up the center and the rest just missed the target entirely
I once shot a bear with my pajamas on
Jul 29, 2009, 07:04 AM
Magicsmoke maker
Inflexo's Avatar
Sure it wasn't a beaver you shot with a walking-stick?
Jul 29, 2009, 08:49 AM
Not THAT Ira
Real Ira's Avatar
Some old school marksmanship instructors blame this issue on the transition from 6 shot revolvers to "wonder nines" with 15+ round mags.
Training has drifted from taking each and every shot as if your life depended on it towards a "spray and pray" mentality.

My personal choice for carry is a 5 shot, cal. 357 revolver.
Got to make each round count but boy will one hit leave a mark.
Jul 29, 2009, 11:46 AM
Really?
dll932's Avatar
I believe few officers fire their guns except for the minimum required to keep current. When all those Smith model 10s got swapped for autos and went to gun stores, most only had holster wear.
Jul 29, 2009, 11:53 AM
Needs a vacation
thermlin''s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Knifemaker
Amazing!! Too bad they didn't have you to cover their 6's.
Uh, with one guy...never mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie Shaw
Mate I've got a drill for you.... You'll have your 9 mil G.... and I'll use my little ole S/W 22. auto.... I will also guarantee that you will not hit anywhere close to a bullseye at whatever distance.. becuase you'll be to busy trying to keep you head down.... and if you don't believe me... will you get the picture...


and if you thing I don't know what I'mma talkin about will this vietnam vet can rock N roll....
Ready and waiting. I'm up for it, but we should keep it known here that the OP suspect had a KNIFE, not a firearm. Quite a different situation won't you say?


The point of the ACTUAL OP is that the cops aren't trained nearly well enough...or totally blew it off.
The suspect (killer) 1. had a knife 2. didn't approach police 3. wasn't cooperating.
It shouldn't have even been a difficult "life-or-death" situation. The girl's life was in danger. It should be mentally go back to your training and get off a clean shot or two on the target, not freak out.


I think my testimony has taken away from the OP a little because nobody is seeing the difference. I wouldn't expect to pop off 9 rounds and get a hit every time in this situation because I'm not trained. I would very well expect the police to, however.
Jul 29, 2009, 12:45 PM
Try the Truth for a change
Bill Henley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Knifemaker
I once shot a bear with my pajamas on
How did the bear get into your pajamas?
Jul 29, 2009, 02:42 PM
Pedal Power!
lakedude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metieval
I am starting to think cops are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Maybe you didn't read where they shot an innocent girl in the head, and missed the perp all together? I think a little "damning" is in order, YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metieval
I didn't research the story in OP, but from the post here the victim had a gunshot wound to the head??? That is bad and sad if perp only had a knife
Exactly.
Jul 29, 2009, 02:45 PM
Pedal Power!
lakedude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Ira
Some old school marksmanship instructors blame this issue on the transition from 6 shot revolvers to "wonder nines" with 15+ round mags.
Training has drifted from taking each and every shot as if your life depended on it towards a "spray and pray" mentality.
This has a ring of truth to it. I'm not sure of exactly what happened but the "spray and pray" scenario seems very likely.
Jul 29, 2009, 02:55 PM
Pedal Power!
lakedude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermlin'
...we should keep it known here that the OP suspect had a KNIFE, not a firearm. Quite a different situation won't you say?
Exactly correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thermlin'
The suspect (killer) 1. had a knife 2. didn't approach police 3. wasn't cooperating.
It shouldn't have even been a difficult "life-or-death" situation. The girl's life was in danger. It should be mentally go back to your training and get off a clean shot or two on the target, not freak out.
Exactly.

Not hitting the intended target in a near panic situation bothers me only a very little but hitting the victim in the head is the real icing on the cake of incompetence.

Of course the M.E. covered it up saying the the Ulmer would have died anyway from the stab wounds (and this may very well be true). If a civilian shoots and kills someone 2 minutes before they would have died anyway, they are still guilty of murder, are they not?
Jul 29, 2009, 03:22 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakedude
Maybe you didn't read where they shot an innocent girl in the head, and missed the perp all together? I think a little "damning" is in order, YMMV.

Exactly.
I agree.

the damned if they do damned if they don't, was just saying some people will argue they shouldn't shoot at all which is what happened near me. As for my opinion, if they have a gun and obviously can't use it, they need to be fired. (and damned )

I am all for shooting perps armed with weapons. err that is shooting him/her, not at him/her.
Jul 29, 2009, 03:41 PM
Pedal Power!
lakedude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metieval
I agree.

the damned if they do damned if they don't, was just saying some people will argue they shouldn't shoot at all which is what happened near me. As for my opinion, if they have a gun and obviously can't use it, they need to be fired. (and damned )

I am all for shooting perps armed with weapons. err that is shooting him/her, not at him/her.
I agree as well.

I don't have the slightest problem with the use of deadly force in this instance. Deadly force was clearly called for since Anderson was in the middle of murdering Ulmer when police fired their weapons. 9/10 or 10/10 rounds into Anderson would have been fine with me.

My issues are entirely with the aiming of said deadly force...
Jul 29, 2009, 04:01 PM
Suspended Account
badaltitude's Avatar
Such is the simple truth about handguns. Only the most expert of experts can hit their intended target in such a situation. In this situation the murderer was in very close proximity to the victim. Making a decent shot in such a situation without endangering the life of the innocent victim is practically impossible.

The outcome is not surprising given the limits of handguns.

By the way, before the NRA types start howling, I used to shoot handguns extensively. I was quite good with my smith & wesson .22 calibre match pistol (patent dec. 17, 01) but wouldn't even think of trying to hit one of two human beings in close proximity with it.

I never could hit the broad side of a barn with my .38 calibre smith and wesson police revolver.

I got out of the habit of playing with such dangerous toys before the "nines' so popular among the 'gangsta' element became the norm...but as someone has suggested, they are probably harder to handle in an emergency situation than one of the old .38 police specials.

If the policmen in question had dropped their firearms and gang tackled the perp, instead of opening fire with such a woefully inadequate and dangerous tool as a handgun, the murdered lady might still be alive today.

Basically, in the hands of anyone other than the very rare expert, pistols are for jamming into someone's belly and pulling the trigger...or firing into areas where you don't give a rat's behind what catches the bullet....

Now...I await fascinating tales of expert marksmanship from the usual suspects....which i am sure will be exaggerated and NOT apply to life or death situations or firing weapons at a human being.
Jul 29, 2009, 04:22 PM
Start spreadin' the news.
Park_Flyer's Avatar
I don't think you'll get many contrary replies BA. You bring up good points (except maybe the "dangerous toys" part).

Similar to you, I can shoot the center out of a target with my .22 target pistol, but I'm still learning how to shoot my 9 mm accurately.

As the OP topic infers, what this boils down to is practice and training. Many police departments have tactical training programs that present the officer with heart rate raising real world situations as opposed to just shooting at paper. I wonder if the officers in this particular story had that kind of opportunity?

Oh, and I once shot the wings off a fly at 100 yards


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