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Sep 11, 2001, 07:51 AM
Swedes don't grow on trees
Jonas Leander's Avatar
Thread OP

500AR vs. 500AR vs. 600AE


This topic pops up every once in a while. In the July 2000 issue of S&E Modeler I found something which I found very interesting. Steve Neu tested most of Sanyo's e-flight cells and plotted graphs to show the results. I have scanned the results for the old 500AR's, the new 500AR's and the 600AE's. I think this is very interesting for S400 pylon pilots!

500AR - old
500AR - new
600AE

I think we are going for duration (4 min) races here in Sweden, so I am buying 600's for both sport flying and racing now.

/ Jonas
Last edited by Jonas Leander; Sep 16, 2001 at 04:11 AM.
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Sep 11, 2001, 11:37 AM
small electrics r BIG FUN
I think test results are good sources of information and should be used as indicators of probable outcomes. "Your results may vary" is appropriate here.

I read those test results wben they came out. It made me want to do my own tests. I flew green 500ar cells and 600ae cells in the same plane. The 500ar's flew for 3 minutes of aerobatics, the 600ae flew for 20 seconds longer. The first minute of both flights , it was not easy to tell who had the rpm advantage. However, halfway into the flights, the ae cells waned a bit and the ar's sustained more rpm longer.

This is the trap of accepting test results as the only outcome. I will ultimately rely on actual flight results. And that is not perfect either.

Regards
Sep 11, 2001, 07:26 PM

batteries


Hi Jonas,

Flying all three pack also says the 600ae batteries are the best. They also come up the best running them on my amp,volt,mah meter, not by much but enough to make a difference when flying. I think it's a good choice.

My 2¢
Sep 12, 2001, 03:40 AM
Swedes don't grow on trees
Jonas Leander's Avatar
Thread OP
I forgot to add my own experiences: I have both new 500's and some 600's. I have flown a couple of proper 4 minute races, and I consistently get more laps on the 600's. What preferences do the rest of you have?

/ Jonas
Sep 12, 2001, 08:02 AM
small electrics r BIG FUN
My apologies for posting a sport flying answer to a pylon question. Are your races timed, laps, or both ?

Regards

Al
Sep 12, 2001, 08:53 AM
Swedes don't grow on trees
Jonas Leander's Avatar
Thread OP
No offense taken whatsoever.

S400 pylon is literally in its cradle at the moment over here and we have mostly been playing around with different types of races. We are leaning towards what Petri Nygren writes about - 4 minute races with a timed last lap.

Oh, and by the way: 95% of my flights are sport / aerobatic flights with either of my pylon planes.

/ Jonas
Sep 13, 2001, 02:16 AM
Senior Member
Jonas,

We are going to have the last race of the season next sunday. Let me take a look which cells people are using and how they manage with them.

Wingnumbers for next season are given after this race, just like in F1
Sep 15, 2001, 03:28 PM
Registered User
plinse's Avatar
Hi Jonas,

I would be very interested in the graph of the 600AE but the link does not work any longer.
Have you changed the URL?

Eike
Sep 15, 2001, 08:22 PM
Motors beat engines!
Does anyone know how the AP1000 cells would fit in here?

Seems since they are the same size and only a little heavier that they would be in the running too.

From what I understand, they would have a current advantage over 600ae's after the first two minutes.
Sep 16, 2001, 04:14 AM
Swedes don't grow on trees
Jonas Leander's Avatar
Thread OP
Thanks plinse,

I typed the wrong link already when posting... I have changed the link now. Thanks!

/ Jonas

Quote:
Originally posted by plinse
Hi Jonas,

I would be very interested in the graph of the 600AE but the link does not work any longer.
Have you changed the URL?

Eike
Sep 16, 2001, 03:49 PM
Senior Member
OK, we just had the last race of the season, and the case is just about closed.

Between green AR´s and AE´s, 600AE is the winner.

We had 8 participants out which 7 flew. Out of the 7, 3 used green 500AR´s and 4 used 600AE´s. All the 600AE pilots made it every time through 4 minutes with ease, although somewhat slowing down in the end.

Pilots with green 500AR´s had very mixed results, perhaps partly because of charging or cell unbalance problems. Many of their flights did not reach 4 minutes duration.

It is true that winner used green 500AR´s, but even he reported not being satisfied with his batteries. On his opinion, he might have been marginally faster during 1-2 first minutes, but after that there was a rapid decline to worse compared to other models (of same type) using 600AE´s. Last 20 secs were always a struggle to remain in the air.

Second and third used 600AE´s. #2 actually flew clearly higher score than the winner in the finals, but lost because of one cut.

It has been said long since that 600AE´s need a long recovery phase after high amperage use. It became evident for us too; 600AE pack was worse on the second flight. So, it would be a good idea to have several packs for the races.

Another trick that proved to be very beneficial, was a one learned from our dear electric R/C Car racing friends. They balance a pack leaving individual cells shorted by 4 Ohm resistor, for 4-12hrs, after which they let the pack to recover up to a week. I improved my personal record flying a pack treated this way today.
Sep 16, 2001, 04:32 PM
Swedes don't grow on trees
Jonas Leander's Avatar
Thread OP
Thanks Petri! Very interesting information.

@ Everybody: I have now renamed the images in the links so that you get the correct images when you follow the links. Sorry for being confused.

/ Jonas
Sep 16, 2001, 05:11 PM
Registered User
plinse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Petri Nygren

Another trick that proved to be very beneficial, was a one learned from our dear electric R/C Car racing friends. They balance a pack leaving individual cells shorted by 4 Ohm resistor, for 4-12hrs, after which they let the pack to recover up to a week. I improved my personal record flying a pack treated this way today.
That is exactly what I do with my 600AE and they really work well. I have got to admid that I raced RC-Cars some years ago .

I use the cells with my Hacker B2018L mostly, which means that the current is 17A-19A on the ground, I guess something like 15A when flying. The 500AR are not as good. But that was the reason for me being so interested into the graph of the 600AE. I wanted to see whether my experiences are similar to the measured results. Thanks Jonas!


Eike
Sep 17, 2001, 05:38 AM
Registered User
Joni Piililä's Avatar
Hi all!

This is my first post in Ezone forum....
I was racing in this event and notised great difference between two charging programs. I'm using Schulze Isl-6 430d charger. User can select between automatic charge current selection and
manual charge current selection. Manual says that automatic mode is "charging fully but gently". When I'm charging green 500 AR with automatic mode current starts from 0.3 -> 4 -> 0.3 AMPS (it uses high AMPS only few minutes during charging). In the end of charge cells are not so warm. Total charged capacity is normally 580 mA. Interesting thing it is with manual setting, if I select 2.5 A for the charge current it uses it from start to end and
after charging cells are clearly warmer than they were using automatic mode. Total charged capacity is 640 mA! Now 4 minutes flying time was easily achieved!

This manual mode seems to be hard for the cells, but it gives more flying time. Is this typical for 500 AR cells or can this be extrapolated to all NiCd? what charge programs people use in F5D?

Joni
Sep 17, 2001, 07:15 PM
Caution:Makes sharp left turns
Troy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Petri Nygren
Another trick that proved to be very beneficial, was a one learned from our dear electric R/C Car racing friends. They balance a pack leaving individual cells shorted by 4 Ohm resistor, for 4-12hrs, after which they let the pack to recover up to a week. I improved my personal record flying a pack treated this way today.
This is exactly what we do with our racing packs in F5D. It is essential when you have matched packs. We zero the cells individually after every flight in "battery coffins", a box that has metal tabs touching each cell connected to resistors that short out each cell to itself under a load. The last cell, the one with a positive lead showing, has a connector that plugs in and a wire that leads to its reistor. I'll upload a pic on here later tonight. I've found that internal resistance goes up considerably if we do not practice individual cell discharging before charging again. Our current draw 70-100Ah so every little bit of voltage loss counts.

[quote]what charge programs people use in F5D? [quote]
We generally do an automatic charge program that lets the charger regulate how much current is put in. When the cells are peaking it's better have the current automatically go up or down as needed so the cells aren't over heated. My charger goes up to 4.2Ah max which is fine for large sub-C cells. When charging the 600AE cells you may want to limit the max Ah setting while it is in automatic mode (if possible on your charger). If not than doing a slower charge will be fine for your batteries.


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