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Old Oct 20, 2009, 06:38 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
Anyone not there that thinks they should be? Show up next year, and lets make sure we have the best team.
Yes.

We need a list of contests that are used for rankings.

If we all are going to be ranked, I want to know which contests I need to go to, and which contests I need to try and win.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 08:22 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
I really suck guys...
I don't know about that. According to my ranking list (which only exists for personal enjoyment, is for fun only, disclaimer disclaimer) you are #5! That is pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
Please give me some suggestions as to how we can make the site better by way of updating, and maybe some volunteers to work with me on it.
I'll gladly help with F3k.us. I'm not a web programmer but I can do administrative stuff. Process applications for contests, process contest results, update links to contests, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
I think we need to understand the theme of the ranking system is not to determine empirically the best pilot. Its not clear up any debates about who is the best.
Actually I hope it causes more debates! Discussion and excitement is good for the team selection process and will be good for building excitement to encourage folks to help $ fund the team that is selected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
I want to see a US team dominate in Sweden, but I want more sportsman, more beginners and novices getting turned on by what they see.
Now you are talking! That captures my hopes perfectly as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp
If we all are going to be ranked, I want to know which contests I need to go to, and which contests I need to try and win.
The list on f3k.us (exactly what I used for my funsy ranking system) has been published since the spring of this year. Hopefully when it really counts (2010) we can get the list started a bit sooner than that even. But definitely the list of the major contests on f3k.us was in existence for a good while.

Ryan
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 09:57 AM
2013 US F3K Team Manager
Newbury Park, CA
Joined May 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
Anyone not there that thinks they should be?
Kai Yang
Bob McGowan
AJ McGowan
Michael Steinbeck
John Erickson
Greg Norsworthy
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 10:05 AM
Challenge is rewarding
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San Diego, CA
Joined Aug 2004
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Those names ought to get added if the Eldo comps and the Norcal comps get added to the list.

Well, AJ will be left out, but I am not aware of any contest he flew thiss year. I may be wrong, and he is obviously a world class thermal pilot, but you have to go to a contest to be considered right.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 11:40 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Dlgdude,

The guys you listed were definitely at some of the contests that were considered in my analysis. Unfortunatly they did not place high enough at those contests (IHLGF was the big one) to get into the mix. There are other pretty obvious names too (nobody has yet mentioned Paul Anderson).

This discussion is good. Hopefully it continues to build interest in F3K in general, in the 2010 US team selection process (whatever that may turn out to be), and in a national for fun ranking system. I say we keep up the discussion.

Any thoughts on what kind of contests should be eligable? I think any F3K rules contest of any size should be eligable (of course keeping in mind that a 10 pilot contest will only qualify the winner of that contest, a 15 pilot contest just qualifies winner and runner up, etc.) so long as it is submitted to the administrators some timeframe in advanced of the contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djklein21
Those names ought to get added if the Eldo comps and the Norcal comps get added to the list.
This might be picking nits, but by the rules on f3k.us some of those contests (and actually some of the contests in my analysis) would not be eligable due to not running enough rounds. The rules specified that a 1 day contest should have at least 7 rounds and a 2 day have at least 12 rounds or 10 rounds if a flyoff is held. I mentioned in the first post when I posted the list of people that would have been invited to a qual event (had there actually been one) that I did not look at the validity of the contests. I have since looked at most of them and by looking at the final scores it seems likely to me that a few of them did not meet the # of rounds requirement. I don't know if that is a deal breaker or not (or if it should be removed from consideration).

Ryan
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:04 PM
Challenge is rewarding
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Joined Aug 2004
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Great point.

I actually really like the way you are ranking pilots. Again, not to say that #1 is better than #4, but that the top 40 deserve an invite to the TS comp.

I also like the way it weights the contests. It is way harder to win a big one than it is to win a small one. In fact, it is harder to place top 5 at the IHLGF or The Polecat... than it is to win a smaller event.

I also like the fact that you have to get out and participate to get to the team selections. Paul Anderson is obviously worthy of being considered for the team selections, and so would be AJ McGowen, but they have to get out and play if they want an invite.

I also like the fact that it makes the small contest step up their game if they want to be considered. Looking at the Norcal group is a good example. They have a great group developing there. Bob, Kai, Greg, AJ.... all deserve a shot. They got it at the IHLGF and the Socal Cup (2 day not in the scores currently) but did not perform well enough to get points here. So in order to get some points from their local comps, they will have to submit it to the F3K.us site, as well as AMA sanction. I hope it motivates these local comps like the Norcal series and the Socal Eldo and TPG series (just announced for 2010) to run enough rounds, use F3K rules, and AMA sanction to step up. I think it will also step up participation at the events that jump though the hoops by top competitors looking for more points. I know I will be making an extra effort to get to the contests that count next year.

So in summary, something like this should do the US F3K scene a lot of good. It should promote more small events that are full F3K comps. It should get more competitors to go to those events. It should also get more competitors to travel across the county to the larger events. A top 3 at any of the 50+ pilot events looks like it will ensure an invitation to the TS contest. So a ranking system like this should accomplish the goals of promoting F3K in the US.

Great Data!!
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:56 PM
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This is a good discussion.

I just want to reiterate that the ranking system is really just for fun and a point of interest.

To be qualified for the TS, the process is stated on the F3K.us site and appears like it should work based on the numbers that Ryan compiled. The idea is to increase participation and get clubs at the local level more involved. I think this 2009 practice run has emphasized the importance of getting your contest on the list so it can be included in the qualification process.

The idea behind requiring the event to be AMA sanctioned is primarily to force contest directors to get the ball rolling so everyone has sufficient time to decide if they want to attend. It also helps avoid conflicting events in the same geographic area. Getting a sanction is not difficult - you just need to be a certified contest director, fill out the paper work and pay the money. See here for more details

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/compfaq.aspx
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/e...egulations.pdf

Ryan, if you are willing to help out Mike Seid with keeping the F3K.us site updated with contest scores/results, that would be a HUGE help. Thanks in advance!!!

Tom
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 01:45 PM
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All,

I totally agree that this is a pretty good system, my views are only based on previous experience where guys just had to show up to a bunch of contests and they would rank high. I definately believe the top guys on the ranking list are top guys in the country just expressing an opinion.

I do believe however that this is a really good way to figure out who gets invited to the US team trials. Going to multiple contests and doing well at them consistantly is exactly what we are looking for representing the US in Sweden.

I only hope next year I will be able to make time to make a few of these contests and make the team!

James
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 05:07 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
10,214 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke

The list on f3k.us (exactly what I used for my funsy ranking system) has been published since the spring of this year. Hopefully when it really counts (2010) we can get the list started a bit sooner than that even. But definitely the list of the major contests on f3k.us was in existence for a good while.

Ryan
I did not know this....but I just looked.
Thanks Ryan.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 05:52 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Tom, I sent Mike an email with my contact info. I'm glad to help out with this kind of stuff. I totally agree the ranking system should be just for fun. Perhaps somebody could throw a small token prize to the top ranked guy for the year. Say a small metal rooster or a stuffed toy Kangaroo or Joe W's hat that somebody stole or whatever.

Kenny, no prob. My plan is to promote the heck out of whatever team selection system is implimented next year. I think it is going to be a very exciting year for hand launch.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 08:19 PM
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I would also like to help Tom Kiesling emphasize that two very different things are being discussed in this thread and that quite a few guys are posting as if they don't know the difference. This is going to cause a HUGE amount of confusion that may take a long time to sort out.

I would suggest splitting off the ranking discusion to its own thread.

The two issues being discussed are:

1) The US team selection process. This is explained at the F3K.US site. Details on this page. The process is very simple: You need to do well enough at a single two-day contest or two one-day contests during the season to qualify to attend the single team selection contest. You can enter as many qualifying contests as you want until you do well enough to qualify for the team selection contest.

2) The second issue being discussed is Ryan's own personal ranking system which is non offical and has nothing to do with team selection or team selection qualifying or anything beyond Ryan's or your own personal amusement.

In my opinion, there is no nationwide ranking system that will accurately depict much of anything with any precision at all. Ryan's ranking system gives a general idea of how well some pilots perform to Ryan's chosen priorities but that is all. I would choose very different priorities if I were to set up a ranking system that would hope to live up to the term "ranking system".

If any ranking system were to be discussed (hopefully in its own therad, not this thread) as a possibly more official thing then I would offer some more opinion on what I would think might make a better system.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 08:25 PM
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In writing my last post, I noticed a couple things: It was not trivial to find the details of the team selection process, I didn't see any link that sounded like it would take me to that page and I had to just click on all links until I found it.

The title of that page contains the term "rankings". This must be part of the confusion between the team selection process and the ranking process. F3K.US has no ranking system yet (Ryan has only demonstarted his own personal ranking system), and of course ANY ranking system currently has NOTHING to do with team selection.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 08:30 PM
Yes..ok..maybe..lol.....
Tucson Avra Valley, Arizona, United States
Joined Jul 2004
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I have tried without any success to get the 2009 Arizona Open on the Calendar. It is an AMA sanctioned contest. It is a two day contest. It has been announced in the AMA magazine and will be held on November 7th and 8th,2009. Can someone please help me with this?
Thanks,
-Dave
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 08:53 PM
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San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes
In writing my last post, I noticed a couple things: It was not trivial to find the details of the team selection process, I didn't see any link that sounded like it would take me to that page and I had to just click on all links until I found it.

The title of that page contains the term "rankings". This must be part of the confusion between the team selection process and the ranking process. F3K.US has no ranking system yet (Ryan has only demonstrated his own personal ranking system), and of course ANY ranking system currently has NOTHING to do with team selection.
I agree, there should probably be two separate links. One that takes you to the explanation of what the US F3K League is about, the other should take you to the details of the qualification process for the US team selection. Or maybe just change the button to "US F3K League and Team Selection Qualification"

I agree that the "rankings" term on top of all the pages is probably leading to some confusion.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 11:13 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Like I said at the very start, please don't flame me. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes
I would also like to help Tom Kiesling emphasize that two very different things are being discussed in this thread and that quite a few guys are posting as if they don't know the difference.
Well in my defense I certianly know the difference. Every time I posted anything I tried to emphathise that A) I have no authority to do anything and B) this is my personal take on things from doing a little data mining and some analysis and C) I tried to start by simply trying to figure out who would have qualified to attend a team selection event, were there to be one. The first thing I posted in this thread was a simple list of who I belive would have qualified to attend the selection. I posted that here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=71 on Friday at noon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes

1) The US team selection process. This is explained at the F3K.US site. Details on this page. The process is very simple: You need to do well enough at a single two-day contest or two one-day contests during the season to qualify to attend the single team selection contest.
Exactly. I tried to explain that a few times too but I think you explained it in a better fashion. And I simply attempted to find out who would be on that theoretical list (mostly to get an idea for how many pilots that might be). It could well be that there are a few additional people to be put on that theoretical list if there were other events that should be included. I'm hoping to find out more on that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes
2) The second issue being discussed is Ryan's own personal ranking system which is non offical and has nothing to do with team selection or team selection qualifying or anything beyond Ryan's or your own personal amusement.
Yes, the ranking I put together is just for my personal amusement. But that said I find it strange that there were only 70 posts in this thread until last Friday. If you check out page 4 of this thread (an important enough thread to be stickied in this forum) you will see several times over the summer I tried bumping it to build interest or get folks talking about this. Then I posted the list of folks I think qualified for the theoretical TS (unranked, ordered alphabetically) on Friday and some folks started talking. But really, not much talking came from that posting. So then yesterday afternoon I decided to post the Ryan ranking system. As I was posting it I had some pretty seriuos reservations. I really did not want to offend anyone but I think it is important to talk about the F3K team selection process now rather than later. I tried to explain in that post several times the Ryan Ranking System is in no way official or approved by anyone. And now I'm getting emails and PMs mostly with kudos and some curious about the system I developed for my personal amusement. Any kind of press is good press? I don't know about that but at least people are now talking and thinking about this thing and I think that is pretty important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes
I would choose very different priorities if I were to set up a ranking system that would hope to live up to the term "ranking system".
I encourage you to put together a system. It is a lot of fun. I ran the Ryan system quite a few different ways and from the 5 or 6 different ways I looked at it the top 5 were always the same 5 guys (and by a pretty good margin) although the order shuffled some.

Apparently a lot of people think a ranking system is at least not a bad idea, based on the survey here:

http://www.f3k.us/

The question was "Do pilots want a ranking system in 2009?" and over 2/3 agreed.

This is the last that I'll be discussing my ranking system within this thread. I'm really much more interested in discussing ways to make the team selection in 2010 be inclusive, fair, fun, educational, and good for the hobby/community.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shhhhh!
I have tried without any success to get the 2009 Arizona Open on the Calendar.
Dave I'm going to try to talk to the admins of the f3k.us site about your contest. Blue Skies over Colorado was also brought to my attention as a contest that was attempted to be listed.

While we are pointing out discliamers I want to remind people that my understanding is 2009 contests won't be incuded in the team selection process. And for that matter, I don't think any of us know if the process outlined on f3k.us will be the final selection process (if you look at the site it reads that this process is just a proposal and will require final approval from the team selection comitte). The sole purpose of having contests register in 2009 is to get an idea of how many people would qualify for attending a team selection had there been one in 2009 (which as you all know there was not) and to do a "dry run". That is really the only reason I posted the data I compiled in the first place. To try to give folks an idea how things could work in 2010. And to get people excited and talking about the US F3K team. This is only going to be brand new once. We should take full advantage of the excitement that is going to come from this and leverage it to enhance the hand launch community.

Ryan
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