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Old Feb 08, 2010, 12:30 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Also, I wonder why we are allowing for so many contests?

why should team qualifiers be more represented by any one area of the country simply because they either have the ability, man power or whatever to host weekly contests? I am all for gettting guys interested in qualifying and being interested in hand luanch but should any one area benefit more.

I know that we (my club) need to pay extra for permission to host a contest on the property we use. the county also has other dates that are taken for use by other groups. Is it fair that our area be underrepresented simply because we do not have the availability to host more than a limited number of contests?

I know this will start to sound like 1776 where areas who have more pilots should be more represented. This will be like when the fonding fathers decided to have a House and a Senate to handle states with more numbers versus equal representation.

Personally I think we already handle the quantity issue - more pilots qualify when attendance is large.

As you can tell, I am not thrilled but will respect whatever policy is enacted.

Frank
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 12:59 PM
I'm all about that bass
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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
Also, I wonder why we are allowing for so many contests? I fear some unscrupulous individual will do the following:
get a group of 10 or more(or whatever the min. number is) and saction 10 contests. Next they will each take turns willing so they will then be qualified for team selections.
Frank, I think that is a very unlikely scenerio and would not really benefit the
"group of 10". First all the "the 10" would acquire by producing such a conspiricy is the ability to attend a team selection. They would still have to spend the $$$ to attend such a team selection (or bid on hosting the team selection). Second they would have to still win a spot on the team to get any real value out of all of this. Third qualification events have to be posted on www.f3k.us at least 1 month prior to the contest and if other folks see some devious activity they could stimply make plans to attend those contests to attempt to bust up the conspiricy.

Ryan
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 01:46 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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OK, as I have stated, my devious example is a poor one but the issue of 'representation' still exists.

I have since editted out the poor example but the topic or equal representation at the qualifiers, I feel, still bears some merit.

so please diregard that aspect and focus on the topic of 'numerous contests is select geographic areas' instead.

thanks

Frank

Sorry for the poor example. It is what happens when one types faster than one thinks.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:00 PM
I'm all about that bass
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so please diregard that aspect and focus on the topic of 'numerous contests is select geographic areas' instead.
I'm not completely sure what you are asking about here, Frank. I think any geographic area/region that wants to qualify pilots for the TS can/will do so. The 2010 qualification process is still very young. We are just 1/8th of the calander days through this. I don't think there will be any improper representation in the pilots that qualify.

Ryan
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:13 PM
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I know that we (my club) need to pay extra for permission to host a contest on the property we use. the county also has other dates that are taken for use by other groups. Is it fair that our area be underrepresented simply because we do not have the availability to host more than a limited number of contests?
In a word , yes, it is fair. It's a pretty good bet that those areas that have the most contest will also produce more top level pilots. Regardless, the current system is the most inclusive one could imagine, while still requiring qualifying events - and isn't that what we want? Besides, there is nothing to keep those folks in areas that have fewer qualifying events from traveling to other contests to qualify. I'm sorry that your field requires a charge for its use, but to limit the number of events that other clubs could put on is not the answer to your issue.

Clay
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:17 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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In reading this thread there are comments about certain clubs/organizations having numerous (5-10+) sanctined events that will be added to this calendar and will be elegible to be used to qualify for team selections.

I simply would prefer that each club have only one contest elegible point (either a single 2 day contest or 2 - 1 day contests) for qualification of pilots to team selection. That's all.

why should any one group offer more contests for contestants for team selection than any other. Granted, if more pilots attend, I am fine with more from that contest being elegible but why should any and every sanctioned contest wishing to be included be allowed?
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:25 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Clay,
I do not care about just my area but all the various situations that might prevent one from having sanctioned contest.

If an area has more pilots then any contest they have would have more contestants. The rules already indicate that the number that earn a position to go to qualifiers is based on the number that attend.

Now, if areas that have more contestants have more contests then not only would they have more go per contest but also due to having more contests. It becomes growing issue.

Add to the fact that maybe some , once they qualify, may not go to other contests that are used for qualifications then you will no longer have just the cream going to qualifiers.


All I am saying is that is that moer pilots in an area will yield more qualifiered pilots simply because there will be greater number attending a contest. Why add to that more contests.

If there are 30 or so eligible weekends without there being ANY overlap of contests anywhere in the country. Let's also say that the bear minimum attend so that only one will earn qualifying rights. That already places 30 pilots at the competition. We can double or triple or quadruple that if we split the U.S. into two or three or four sections yielding up to 120 pilots if only the bear minimum attend.

If you up the numbers of each contest so that 2 qualify, on average, you now will be hosting 240 pilots for a 3 day competition. this is without having any single geographic area have multiple contests count.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:31 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Let's add another bit of value to limiting the number of contests to one and that is what you said, if you didn't qualify locally, you will have to travel.

Not evey field offers the same challenges and Europe can be still different from locations here.

Why should someone have more chances at their home field than anyone else? those who fly their home field will have a greater chance of being eligible than those who travel. Everyone knows the field they go to most better than most others.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:43 PM
I'm all about that bass
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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
In reading this thread there are comments about certain clubs/organizations having numerous (5-10+) sanctined events that will be added to this calendar and will be elegible to be used to qualify for team selections.
The most listed by any club so far is from Torrey Pines Gulls. They have 5 single day contests sanctioned and one two day contest (IHLGF) sanctioned.

I would bet that only a handful of southern Californiai pilots qualify in their single day contests that don't also qualify at other contests (say the IHLGF, a Blue Skies event, what have you). Already there are guys from Arizona attending the TPG contests. Arizona and Southern California is a pretty big geographic area and I don't see any problem with them having 5 single day and one two day contests.

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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
That already places 30 pilots at the competition. We can double or triple or quadruple that if we split the U.S. into two or three or four sections yielding up to 120 pilots if only the bear minimum attend.
That is pretty unlikely to happen, in my opinion. Even if it did, once again, qualifying for the team selection does not really gain a person anything. They still have to spend the time and $$ to actually attend the team selection. And then they have to place in the top 3 to be named to the team.

All of these qualification contests is a very good thing for the hand launch hobby. It is building excitement, it is building increased sense of community, it is sharing experiences.


Ryan
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 03:13 PM
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Frank,

Your argument is making me dizzy There are not 240 people in the US capable of qualifying for this event unless your doomsday of people manipulating contests were to take place, and it's not. The biggest F3K events in this country draw less than 90 pilots, and that includes locals who don't travel to other contests and sportman types who won't be at the team trials. If you look at the names of the guys who place in the qualifying spots of the regular local contests as well as the largest events, it's basically the same names all the time. There are only a small, select group of guys really willing to travel to the Team select event and capable of placing in the top 3.

So what is your real concern? Too many good pilots to fly against at the team select? Too many average pilots will qualify to attend? If you've ever followed the team select process of the other FAI Soaring events here in the States you'll see that the numbers of attendees are relatively few, and the winners are always very familiar names.

So embrace the process as it is now, go fly, and good luck in your quest for your club's representation at the select event.

Clay
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 03:36 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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If it doesn't matter, then why should it not be changed?

If the number coming from any one geographic area didn't matter and shear numbers should determine how many attend then why should everyone at the world contest be limited to just 3 pilots. the US and Russia have far more people than say Finland, Norway or Switzerland. Based on your logic, they should have less representation.

Obviously the powers that be suggested a limitation from each area and all I am doing is extrapolating that to the club level.

If you have 5 contests where the same 3 win, why occupy the weekend? Wouldn't it be better to have other clubs take on the opportunity to host such a caliber of contest? Afterall, we want DLGs in every corner of the world and by diversifying the number of locations we get more exposure.

So based onboth of these points (more locations to fly from to qualify and moer exposure and following precident laid out from FAI), how would restricting not be a benefit?

Again, I see there being a bit of possibility to improve the selection process a bit.

Maybe I am overanalyzing this but 1. FAI sees it fair to have equal numbers from various geographic areas, the founding fathers felt it important to have a Senate (2 reps per state) so why is this a bad idea?

If having contests builds excitement, then ahving more places to have them would expose more to this hobby. How is that bad? Why should we limit ourselves to just a few places?
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 05:04 PM
Steve Meyer
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I think it is common knowledge that California particularly Southern California has the highest concentration of "Good" RC pilots. We cannot hold it against them because they happen to live the most favorable area of the country. The same way I expect no breaks because of where I live. Every area has a chance to hold a qualifying contest. I will be traveling to at least 4 different states this Summer to attend qualifying contests. And there are at least 3 more that are possible.

There always has been a commitment required of time and money to this sport.

It would probably be more expensive to move to California and have access to all those contests than to drive and fly to the contests being held around the country.

We all have the same opportunities qualify.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 05:11 PM
I'm all about that bass
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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
If it doesn't matter, then why should it not be changed?

Well, first it should not be changed right now because the process was already laid out months ago. It would be unfair to pull the rug from anyone's effort that has already done work to promote/build contests.

Second, the part that does matter a bunch is the excitement that having lots of contests builds. If guys think they have a chance at being selected, maybe they show up to more contests. Or maybe they schedule more out of town trips. At the end of this, the same pilots are likely to qualify and the same pilots are likely to be in the top 3 at the TS. But the positive energy that gets built along the way that is something that we can have a direct impact on.




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If you have 5 contests where the same 3 win, why occupy the weekend?
Weekends are not being occupied... If you look at the schedule you can see that there is already overlap on qualification contests. The AMA should be doing some due dillegence to confirm that there is not overlap on the same weekend in the same region (what exactly that boils down to, I'm not sure, but I assume they would for example not sanction a hand launch contest in Louisville the same weekend as a hand launch contest in Cincinatti). But other than that overlap can and does happen.


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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
Wouldn't it be better to have other clubs take on the opportunity to host such a caliber of contest?
Heck yeah! That would be great. Clubs should all sanction lots of contests. Club CDs who are reading this simply send an email to to usaf3k "at" gmail "dot" com with your AMA sanctioned contests that you want to be included in the TS process.




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Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
Maybe I am overanalyzing this
Just maybe?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
If having contests builds excitement, then ahving more places to have them would expose more to this hobby. How is that bad? Why should we limit ourselves to just a few places?
It is not bad at all. There is not a limitation on places happening. If your club can only sanction a few contests due to field restrictions, then make those contests really count by drumming up lots of contestants (the more contestants the more qualifying pilots). Or convince other contests you already attend to register. Or convince other clubs in your area to host contests.

Ryan
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Old Feb 09, 2010, 03:28 AM
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Maybe I am overanalyzing this but 1. FAI sees it fair to have equal numbers from various geographic areas...
Yes you are over analyzing this and your argument is self conflicted. The FAI doesn't tell us how many qualifying events we can have, how many venues we can use, or how many people can go to the team select. They only specify 3 pilots per country. You can't say respect the FAI limiting the number per country, but don't respect the fact that they let us choose our representatives in our own way.


Quote:
the founding fathers felt it important to have a Senate (2 reps per state) so why is this a bad idea?
Well the founding fathers also felt the House of Representatives was important, and if I had my way, we'd get rid of the Senate because it doesn't represent the populous fairly - it's one layer of government we really don't need. Bigger populations/ more representatives in the House is more fair.


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If having contests builds excitement, then ahving more places to have them would expose more to this hobby. How is that bad? Why should we limit ourselves to just a few places?
I'm sorry , but it was your original idea to limit the number of contest that other clubs were scheduling because your club couldn't afford to have as many qualifying events. In fact, you said - limit 1 qualifier per club. So which is it - more events in as many places as possible or limit the number of events in each location? You know sometimes people have scheduling conflicts and maybe they need a choice of several qualifiers to be able to attend one in their area. I say we have as many qualifiers as possible, give everyone who wants to go to the team select multiple opportunities to earn a qualifying spot, and have the biggest, best F3K event ever in the US.

BTW, we've plans to put on 2 more qualifiers this year - your welcome to attend Frank.

Clay
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Old Feb 09, 2010, 07:38 AM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Originally Posted by SOAR-Steve View Post
I think it is common knowledge that California particularly Southern California has the highest concentration of "Good" RC pilots. We cannot hold it against them because they happen to live the most favorable area of the country. The same way I expect no breaks because of where I live. Every area has a chance to hold a qualifying contest. I will be traveling to at least 4 different states this Summer to attend qualifying contests. And there are at least 3 more that are possible.

There always has been a commitment required of time and money to this sport.

It would probably be more expensive to move to California and have access to all those contests than to drive and fly to the contests being held around the country.

We all have the same opportunities qualify.
Having moer qualify per contest handles the more pilots in a region.

I am not looking to change it for this year, rather only point out where we might seek improvement.

I have nothing against So. Cal. I totally respect the opportunity to fly and amount of talent that comes out of there.

As for my club's contest, I could care less about it. I want it to do well, don't get me wrong but I feel I am speaking for the other areas of the country that might have similar retrictions.

When you are use to the limitations of space and time as many other places in the country have imposed on them, it is easy to forget their needs as well.

As for the lack of a Senate, you should probably go back to the history books as to why we have one.

Like I said, the size of the pilot population is already taken care of from the fact that more pilots can qualify at larger contests than at small ones.

Why have a double wammy on those who cannot have multiple contests?

If this is a closed issue for most/all, then I will drop it.

I know nothing is perfect and I do think the system is fantastic barring the unlimited contest issue. I was just trying to 'spread the wealth'. Obviously there is power in numbers but I would rather see this hobby, especially DLGs reach every corner of the US, not just the ones already popular. I know when my club hosted the F3J team selections it helped get out exposure and brought many guys from all over to our field. It helped us show the county that although our numbers at the time we not at their greatest that there was national interest in gliders. In some way it may have helped keep our field in an area where 1/4-1/2 acre is worth 1 -2 million dollars.
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