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Old Jan 16, 2009, 03:03 PM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
Joined Jan 2006
244 Posts
Discussion
Non Contest Contest 2day combining elect hlg and electric

We posted here first to get input before going to Events.

I have mentioned occassionly my club, American Airlines in cleveland has an active 2m electric club contest schedule. 10 events per summer with attendance 8 to 14 (averaging 10)flyers. we have never gone public for we are in the middle of a horse farm with a 5 mph restriction on entrance road and a retricted membership. Our club is introverted.

anyhow, some of are in the thinking / planning stages of having an electric and hlg contest this summer. Combine with LSF certification. (this needs to be explored)

we would be Bud Green (ashland club) who is a ama cd, jim carleton LSF 3, and Larry Vincek LSF4. the last two are active handlaunch and td pilots. all have been cd in past.

we are looking at three sites in the Oberlin area.

our collective observations is that guys like to fly as much as possible and more club guys will come out for a fun fly type of event that a "contest".

for example a number of us have gone to Lake Wilson. Mike Gantner is the builder of planes for jack at LEG. chovin, garwood and others went a week early to max flying time. An organzied contest limits flying.

Hence we are trying to incorporate open flying with a low key contest. This integration is part of our planning concerns.

toward this goal, we would allot freq, its yours for the day. 2.4 is not a problem.

EVENTS electric: 2M and 1.5m hlg Wingspan is only limitation

handlaunch: 59" and 50" or 40" less

run this as two separate contests Sat / Sunday morning

we need to understand how we could incorporate LSF tasks with the handlauch contest. something like longest times as one of tasks?/

We have great slopes in Cleveland. one needs SW wind and other needs NE. and a third needs NW.

we could use the afternoon to evening for this. of course wind makes this conditional. lsf task certification would be goal. we could also do one design and/or wing racing.

we see drawing from columbus, cinnci, detroit, indy area.

our goal is get the club type flyer to come out to our contest non contest.

we want to minimize classes and rules. our current club rules started with alburque rules and now only have limit of 2M, 4 tasks. 2 task are longest time with 30 and 50 sec runs. the other two are 8min and 10 min tasks

larry and jim are putting their heads together about hlg tasks

AGAIN THIS IS IN THE PLANNING STAGE. WE WANT TO SEE WHAT OTHERS THINK WILL GET THE MOST PEOPLE OUT. TD pilots is not the audience for us. the bigger the better wingspan for those guys. also we dont have enougth winchs and td is well covered in dayton and cinnci

WE WANT INPUT ON A SIMPLE LOW KEY FORMAT. OUR ONLY RESTRICTION WILL BE WINGSPAN.

should we add a multiplex class or Radian?

how to combine fun fly, all up / last down for example with the contest non contest.

this is in the planning stage, nothing in stone.

bill snow
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Old Jan 16, 2009, 05:22 PM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
Joined Jan 2006
244 Posts
another thread exists

i think rules are a mental block that keeps the casual flyer out. we use to have only nicads. the conservative guys in the club were afraid of fires. yet after the contest, most planes had lipos in them. so our rules penalize a fellow for being contempory. who wants to be told to buy old technology? so each year we chipped away at restrictions. when are at basicalltyno rules but wingspan. we have shorten times from 2 min to 40 seconds and increased task to 2 unlimited and 2 time tasks. i agree with Ric, even when we spek out, making the tasks are not automatic.

The Chyrallis is the most popular plane, followed by hanger 9 Aspire. plus a few old spectrums. these planes are not state of art but cheap and available. the most carbon was in my Renny 2. flew out of sight three times. now a lead sled. spent last winter in the field before found by hunter.
we had felllow putting a small outrunners in a gentle lady. was he competetive, not really, but he was there and had fun. also allowed me to have one plane to finish ahead of until he destroyed it in the tree line.

yes, i know there is a lonnnggg thread on rules and things. the purpose of this tread is to design a contest by focusing on the plane and having the least complicated rules. basically bring what you got to fly.

there are no contests in the midwest, except ama nats. i use to go the michigan for their fun fest. cds were ken myers and keith shaw. most fun was all up last down. they got massive attendance.

Talking about all the nuances of rules where no one shows up is real productive. lets have no rules and see who shows up? I bet guys will drive 2-3 hours and spend one night to fly with other electric flyers. the awards could be just framed pictures with the event on it. that is what i got at michigan for the midwest electric contest when i won the all up last down on saturday. that is my cheapest trophy but one i like the most. i had 27 minutes on a x44o.the next flight i lost that plane a mile out: Ken Myers returned it to me 7 years later. i think he stole my reciever but left the voltz servos, go figure.

i think the biggest potential is the electric handlaunch planes like the lapdancer. think bout ways to tie in lsf skills. the fine points about motor size, mom, limiters is probably only important to the few who feel they should be on the podium.
will we ever have "fair" competetion? i think not. i went to the nats for the experience and commarderie with guys i only read about. it seems there a pockets of elec flyer that are lonely flyers. the fellow in texas being the only e flier. that is not uncommon. my goals have always been to "do better" than be the best. if i moved from dead last to middle of the pack i would buy at least 2 rounds.

Jack Iffrat told me about his club e contest i was going to that was cancelled for lack of interest! cinnci has "named" flyers at the nats, do they have a local electric contest. i havent seen one.

when larry vincek and i looked at all the posts, we felt we had more electric flying than most places. but our club is inward facing and non competetion in terms of becoming cicrcuit flyers. we have beautful slopes, best being in heart of cleveland in a state park facing the lake. smooth water, no brush on hillside, and massive grassy landing site. plus we have a spud gun for the massive oak tree right where the rotor lives.

how could we comibine the unpredicable weather with a non contest contest. perhaps have an option for afternoon is weather looks good that day. these are the thoughts we are kicking around. also we are looking toward have lsf clinic days.

bill snow
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Old Jan 16, 2009, 10:03 PM
Registered User
USA, GA, Marietta
Joined Oct 2000
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Bill,

I run a "No Excuse" contest at SEFF every year. It's 2 minute motor run window with a 15 minute flight. Landing is 10 points in a 20 foot radius circle. I'm doing the same thing your are trying to do, getting beginners to try an LMR event. We have apx. 30 pilots every year.


Ric
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Old Jan 17, 2009, 02:47 AM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
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no excuse

2 min continous or multiple motor runs? no restrictions on plane or battery?

do many of these 30 stay with it? do you retain flyers? the goal of the other threads is to get fair or intertesting rules.what has been your thoughts about next steps?
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Old Jan 17, 2009, 02:58 AM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
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more thoughts on no excuse

Ric,

is that a continuous motor run and the task is 15 minutes. do you have three rounds? do you then run an A and B contest?

Polecat has a pro am pairing. perhaps a bit too formal a process.but i liked the concept. I have been "flying" all sorts of planes for 40 years. but i would have loved to have a pro as i attempted hlg.

i found the biggest frustration for me at my one nats (1997) was finding a timer. it seemed and has been confrimed by some veterans that people come in groups and time for each other. hard to find a person not taken. Thus one of my thoughts was have a pool of "Ask Me" flyers. maybe give them big buttons. these "Pros" would form a pool of timers - coaches. all low key.

we were thinking of a short clinic for newbies before the event. mybe have some buddy box planes available. Would this work? What were the major needs of the No excuse flyers? Where did they need some if any help?

Bill
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Old Jan 17, 2009, 01:22 PM
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Bill,

How about a fly a flight /time a flight rule ? Some indoor contests use this concept to their advantage . Looking forward to see what you guys come up with .

Mike 1484...From the Lorain club
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Old Jan 17, 2009, 08:30 PM
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USA, GA, Marietta
Joined Oct 2000
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Bill,

You can do anything with your motor in the "FIRST" two minutes, the thermal for another 13 minutes for a 15 min. total. The idea behind this is to let "any" power system get high enough to have a chance.

Your right, "NO" restrictions on plane, motor, battery. This way any plane can enter.

We do three rounds. This year we'll do four.

We have had everything from Soarstars to Ava's. The idea is to get pilots exposed to LMR gliding. As long as your plane is electric, your good to go. What we hope is that they will continue to fly AMA LMR events with AMA rules. Most did not have the landing skills to get on the spot to the second, or just get on the spot. A clinic before the event would be great.

Why don't you come on down to SEFF at the end of April and get out of the snow. After the sailplane contest, we'll have about 500 pilots and planes you can scope out.


Ric
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Old Jan 18, 2009, 01:16 AM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
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Seff - what is the draw

i believe your fun fly contest is more a "gathering" a fun fly so to speak from pics i have seen in the magazine. how many flyers would do "no excuse" if it was not a love in? i am not downgrading the event, but asking what was the real draw?
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Old Jan 18, 2009, 01:23 AM
Cleveland Ohio
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What Would You Come Too??

mike, what club do you belong to? we are looking at 3 sites around oberlin. AA flys out of Litchfield n 83, just south of the prision. no flyovers.

on the other threads many guys debating the potential rule changes have said i have flown this or that or all formats.

EVERYONE, What type of event would you come to of all those disussed??

which type hlg, electric hlg, 2m electric

which rules?
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Old Jan 18, 2009, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsnowfall
i believe your fun fly contest is more a "gathering" a fun fly so to speak from pics i have seen in the magazine. how many flyers would do "no excuse" if it was not a love in? i am not downgrading the event, but asking what was the real draw?
Isn't that what you are trying to put on? Don't you want to have a low key contest/fun fly? Ric tries to get people to try electric sailplane, and it works st SEFF.
We also fly this event at Nats, it's called Sport Sailplane. Kind of the same rules, 2 minute motor run, 10 minute max. But, the wing span in limited to 100 inches. Fun event, I fly a Dust Devil in it.

It is hard to get anyone excited about a event this time of year. Say hello to Jim Carleton for me, I have known him for years.

Ed
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Old Jan 18, 2009, 02:17 PM
Cleveland Ohio
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contest planning

yeah you may be right about time of year, but we have to plan and did not want to do it in a vacuum.

will say high to jim, he runs a mattress factory store and is a working fool

he got seduced by build real exp airplanes in his basement. he wants to get more active again. we are running dedicated winch days at the field. he and larry vincek are helping me with my Pike, he also needs to build some dlg.

my gut feeling is the real draw is getting flyin buds together. swap lies and enjoy the moment. who places in the top three is generally preordained. ask a perkins, smith. or wurts. our club meeting last an hour or so, the wings and pizza meeting afterwards runs three or four.

bill
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Old Jan 19, 2009, 12:27 AM
JimN8UAY
United States, OH, Medina
Joined Oct 2004
631 Posts
Hi Ed! It's been awhile! Hope to catch you at an event sometime this year...

Bill, thanks for getting this thread started. I'm curious as to what other pilots think might work. Although I'm not an "e" guy, I imagine I could get something together to fly in such an event. (Hmm, let's see, a 2M Kestral with an outrunner and lipo's?...)

I really question whether or not we could draw from anywhere other than the "local" area. Unless there is a group of attendees that travel to "fun fly" events that I am not aware of, most pilots that I know from other parts are looking for some kind of competition or organized flying. Especially sailplane types. DLG and TD have a good following in the Midwest for competition. E-flight pilots probably are different but, since I have very little experience in that arena, I'm open for ideas, too.

Is there a reason why you would limit wingspan? If you want to do a "one design" type of event that's cool, but why limit it if it's a "fun fly"? Or, how about just incorporating your design parameters in amongst the rounds of flying? If attendance is the goal, with participation, learning and advancement of the sport also key, why put any restrictions until we can get a consensus as to what works? Can we incorporate an "e" event along with a DLG or winch based TD event? I think we can and make it both competitive, informative, low-key and fun to boot!

I look forward to this season and hope we can organize an event or two that gives us the opportunity to spread the word about "quiet flight", soaring and slope flying in our area.

Jim
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Old Jan 19, 2009, 01:07 AM
JimN8UAY
United States, OH, Medina
Joined Oct 2004
631 Posts
suggested event schedule

So here's an idea...comments?
Focus is primarily on flatland soaring, but, if the winds are up (+15/20mph), slope flying at the local sites could be incorporated in the afternoons/early evenings. (I would love to get a couple of races/events at our slopes this year but I digress...)

Friday afternoon/evening:
Open fun-fly @ designated host field
winch available
DLG, e-flight and other various practice and trim flights
evening pizza party

Saturday AM:
Open flying/trim session
10 am clinic - subject To Be Determined
10:30 first rounds LMR - tasks TBD
12 noon - lunch and demo - aerotow, scale, e-flight, combat, dlg
1pm first rounds TD - tasks TBD and incorporate team "pro/am"
open winch, any class
3pm last rounds LMR
5pm Open flying
evening barbecue

Sunday AM:
Open flying
10am - first rounds DLG - tasks TBD - "pro/am"
11am - e-flight - limited wingspan DLG/2M first rounds
12 noon - lunch and demo
1pm - last rounds DLG
3pm - last rounds e-flight
5pm - awards/condolences

With attendance of 10-20 pilots, I think we could comfortably fit in a couple of good days of soaring. Now, to tailor the events to make it enjoyable and competitive...any suggestions? With a smaller turnout this could be doable but with more pilots, it might be wise to pare down the events. Remember, this is more "fun fly" oriented and aimed towards exposure to the events but hopefully enjoyable by the experienced and novice alike.

Jim
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Old Jan 19, 2009, 02:02 AM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
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good ideas

Ed by sportman do you mean 1/2 A sailplane . which i though was presented as an entry level event or is it an unoffical event?

mike i dont know what you mean by "flight /time a flight rule "

great thoughts Parma, the committee meets in parma just down from parma hobby. the club meets further out on ridge. than we go to cleats for wings. first friday of month.

i think you would be surprised by far the distance some guys will go to fly.
for example last year we were thinking of starting a one design and a wing series for a slope racing series at city view but could not get buy in from the stores, too much methane gas from landfill. anyhow i had guys email me from wisc about it.

are you with north coast at sagamore?

there are really no electric contests in midwest area recently. i was member of DARTS in dayton and also flew at voa in cinnicanti. most of these areas fly td. td guys are passionate about big td, they tend to be set in ways. im looking for more of a woodcrafters feel. the electrics at voa were mostly park flyers.

i feel there are a lot of hlg who also have electric ones. LAPDANCERS ETC. columbus, detroit, western ny are really nearby.

We have had good luck with spaghettin parties. lots of food. maybe a pig roast. free food brings out flyers.

the no excuse format can be competitive with 15min task. there seems to be a mental block about contests and competetion. our Alburqure rules contest with 4 tasks is quite competetive.

we set 2m size for we have core of 10 guys doing 10 of these contests a year.

We have some guys flying hotliners, like my flapped ION hotliner? or my 3m grand esteem. We were thinking of an informal F3b (? cant keep themall straight in my mind) competetion for them

we started out one design with the Spectra. no longer made. different motors made the planes act quite differently. Chyrallis and Aspires dominate here. i flew a Renny 2, but lost it three times in clouds. very hard plane to see till i sprayed the bottom black.

you are the third fellow locally who has written and seems quite interested. one guy had a gentle lady electrified.

we do have plans for more slope events. we have an email hotline list when the wind is blowing right. three sites, edgewater ne, city view (i480 ans i77) for sw and osborne in eastlake for nw. much smaller hill and tougher site. we also do some mild DSing near mohcian state park. our biggest hill is in Malvern, south of Canton. giant bowl about 200 feet. must love cows.

again some good input i will review your thoughts with committee.

bill snow
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Old Jan 19, 2009, 02:11 AM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
Joined Jan 2006
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jimi

are you a ham? my dad is w2un.

NO WINCH. we do have tuesday and one sunday as all winch day. winch and power do not mix well. since we dont fly power before noon, that is when we fly electrics.

our club also went electric to avoid the cost of winch and the hassle. i do have a little big winch and a number TD planes, just got a pike. but for the non contest it is for electrics not td pilots per se.

there are more small field flyers like at sagamore and Brunswick who fly radians and easygliders. that is our target newbies.

we do fly street fighters plyons. we have a fellow who cuts the foam kits and one desing knockoffs cheaply.

We do have gas planes for towline, but if we go to pubic fields in oberlin we have to be careful of power.

bill
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