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Old Jul 26, 2009, 06:00 PM
my karma ranover my dogma
galaxiex's Avatar
Edmonton,Canada Eh
Joined Jun 2007
7,570 Posts
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
I realize that mixing in a little rudder can be used to make turns more 'coordinated' in many planes, but so far haven't run across a plane that actually seems to need it.

Anyone care to fill me in?

Chuck



Quote:
Originally Posted by Flypopa
Chuck. You got it. On 'real' aircraft you give a bit of rudder with ailerons. In 'real' gliders you have to give a big bit of rudder with aileron. for the co-ordinated turns.
If I remember correctly and tell me if I am wrong, but it is to do with the 'after effect of the controls' and what happens if you just use the one control. Ailerons it banks the aircraft then the nose will drop. with rudder it turns the aircraft. Rudder only makes the turn like a skid.
The design of the EZ* with the tip dihederal alows you to just use the rudder to turn. But when I put the EZG wings on one of my EZ*s with ailerons, I found that with mixed in rudder (50%) it handles great. Without rudder mixed in.. It was difficult to get a good responce that I liked with just the ailerons.
Interesting... On the subject of ailerons...

While not an EZ*... I have a Slow Stick with the Stevens Aero wing kit with ailerons.

I set it up with stock SS wing perches, for those that don't know, the wing is very close to the stick/fuse.

Flew Great!

Then with no other changes except to add the Radical RC wing perches that give a 1" lift/rise to the wing while keeping the stock incidence angle...

In other words... I raised the wing 1" above the stock location.

It flew like crap!
Severe adverse yaw. Looked really ugly in the bank/turns.
I know I can probably correct that with aileron differential but I mixed in a little rudder instead, 50% much better!
Actually, already have a tiny bit of ail diff setup mechanically with the linkage.
May add more just to see....

BTW I do have a EZ*... no ailerons.... just a big rudder.
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Old Jul 26, 2009, 09:06 PM
EC-135 Driver
500Driver's Avatar
United States, IA, Burlington
Joined Nov 2006
1,131 Posts
Hey...only 500 plus pages of catching up to do now

Just picked up my 1st EZ* tonight. It was a local sale...Craigslist deal...looks like it's only had a flight or two...time to see what all this talk is about
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Old Jul 26, 2009, 09:22 PM
Clyde, Ca. USA
Clyde, Ca. USA
Joined May 2007
2,382 Posts
500Driver Aha! Another poor bloke caught in the Easystars net of deceit and upgrades.
You will enjoy the simplicity of this airplane and we expect to see videos to follow.
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Old Jul 26, 2009, 09:24 PM
Climb,turn,roll,loop,soar
Joeknight's Avatar
Springfield,Ma. USA
Joined Jun 2006
3,608 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
Hi Gene,

A lot of the aileron mods we see, not only on the Easy Star, but on most other models as well, are actually more along the lines of flaperons and spoilerons. They tend to be long affairs that span pretty much the entire wing.

I guess a lot can be said for running full length 'ailerons', and sometimes it's easier to run them full length and just put the control horns near the fuselage because it saves a lot of work.

From an efficiency standpoint though, once ailerons start getting longer, and closer to the fuse, we have a law of diminishing returns as far as them being actually effective as ailerons.

Planes that have both true ailerons and true flaps work the best, because flaps work best next to the fuse, and ailerons work best out near the end of the wing.

Take a look at the pic below. Notice how his ailerons are out at the ends for maximum effect. Out there, they can grab a handful of air and really roll the plane.

I saw this pic on Jim Bourke's blog page. He was recently in Michigan at one of our giant scale exhibitions. I thought this pic said it all.

Chuck
The pic shows what it looks like malfunctioning ailerons...
Joe
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Old Jul 26, 2009, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeknight
The pic shows what it looks like malfunctioning ailerons...
Joe
LOL.... I didn't even notice that.

And here's something else I never noticed either, till I went back and looked at that pic. I'm putting this same plane together right now, and realized that the plane in the pic is actually the SE5A.

From now on, I'm not drinking any bottled water imported from New Jersey.

Chuck
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Old Jul 26, 2009, 11:55 PM
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Jurgen Heilig's Avatar
53859 Niederkassel, Germany
Joined Sep 2000
18,762 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
...
I realize that mixing in a little rudder can be used to make turns more 'coordinated' in many planes, but so far haven't run across a plane that actually seems to need it.

Anyone care to fill me in?
...
Try the Twin-Star for example. So much smoother when you mix a little rudder to the ailerons, or any glider with a wingspan over 2.5m.

Jürgen
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 09:34 AM
Registered User
oldpilot's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Katoomba
Joined May 2002
5,434 Posts
Tree Top.

Way back in April 2004 I said in reply to your post

"I personally think that these new mouldable foams are going to revolutionise the whole mass produced model aircraft kit scene."

AND THEY HAVE.

I now have a large all foam F-35, ducted fan ARF foamie, made of a new stuff called PN. (Potato Nitrile) LOL.

It is based on a new Starch/Microwave technology which a produces foam which has the stiffness of EPS and the resiliance of EPP, which can be molded very smoothly and painted with normal paints. Quite remarkable.

Windrider offers the ARF kit in the choice of PN or EPS, for those who still like styrofoam.

Cheers. Paddy.
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 11:49 AM
Tree Fodder
MumblinBerk's Avatar
Mount Holly Burlington, New Jersey, United States
Joined Sep 2004
986 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
I'm interested in why the Easy Star seems to need rudder mixed in with the ailerons. What tendencies does it have when just using the ailerons and elevator to turn - without mixing in rudder?

I realize that mixing in a little rudder can be used to make turns more 'coordinated' in many planes, but so far haven't run across a plane that actually seems to need it.

Anyone care to fill me in?

Chuck
This isn't an answer, just observation:

I don't have ailerons on the EZ*, but I do fly an EZGlider. Though they look similar, rudder seems to act very differently.
On the EZGlider, using rudder only, you get mostly YAW, the tail will just "wag" side to side, wings stay flat.

Turning with aileron only, the turn is somewhat (though not terribly) sloppy, sliding around a turn rather than a nice bank.
A little rudder corrects that, but I don't have it mixed. (which will really screw up a roll.)
I just add a little rudder durning turns. Need to get the left thumb used to that, anyway.

On the EZStar, rudder by itself also clearly banks the plane, not just yaw. (shorter fuse?)
But I can't comment on ailerons turns, as it depends on how they're implemented.

On landing, the LAST thing you want to do is dip a wing on something like an EZGlider, so I shift from aileron to rudder only to steer on final.

Aileron Length: The EZGlider aileron begins about 1/3 of the wing length away from the fuse.
I would suggest that approximating the proportions of the EZGlider wing aileron would provide pretty much optimal results.
At least it's a better starting point than a guess. At lest, that's what I would do if I were modding the EZ* wing.

Flapperon / Spoileron mixing are both effective with those control surfaces.
I prefer flapperons, though have spoilerons programmed in at the moment. Either way, I keep the mix "tame" so ailerons are still effective.

As for rudder mixing on an EZ* with ailerons... my GUESS would be that it's just not needed, but what the heck, programm it in and play with some settings and see what you like.

Personally, I like doing rolls, and that mix would prevent nice rolls, which would be the only reason I'd make the mod in the first place.

Hope my some of this is of value.

-Berk
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 12:11 PM
Suspended Account
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MumblinBerk

This isn't an answer, just observation:

<snip>

Hope my some of this is of value.

-Berk
Hi Berk,

Fantastic info. Thanks for taking the time for clearing this up for me on the flight characteristics!

Chuck
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 07:27 PM
Registered User
Kmart's Avatar
United States, CO, Boulder
Joined Sep 2008
7,433 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2500GENE
Mr.Pibb and Zooman, thanks for the replies. Im wondering how a larger width would work further out from the fuse. Mr.Pibb, how well does it respond and bank without the rudder mixed in?
Zooman, nice looking plane. Thanks for your imput. Do you mix rudder in also?
I'm depressed right now. One of my wiener dogs jumped up and munched my Lama heli out of the air while landing in the back yard. I may have to change his name to KMart so I'll enjoy beating him with a rolled up newspaper.

Gene
Wow, so Gene not only owns Lap dogs, he beats them too...

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Old Jul 27, 2009, 09:17 PM
Certified RPAS Instructor
The_Mongrel's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Yass
Joined Dec 2007
7,748 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MumblinBerk
This isn't an answer, just observation:

I don't have ailerons on the EZ*, but I do fly an EZGlider. Though they look similar, rudder seems to act very differently.
On the EZGlider, using rudder only, you get mostly YAW, the tail will just "wag" side to side, wings stay flat.

Turning with aileron only, the turn is somewhat (though not terribly) sloppy, sliding around a turn rather than a nice bank.
A little rudder corrects that, but I don't have it mixed. (which will really screw up a roll.)
I just add a little rudder durning turns. Need to get the left thumb used to that, anyway.

-Berk
I have an EZ Star with the EZ Glider wings and have a solution for the Rudderp-Aileron issues.

I have my 3 Way switch programmed with some mixes.

Pos1 = No mix. This is so I can throw the beast around on Ailerons only.
Pos2 = Ailerons + 50% Rudder. This is for when I want to have nice banking turns
Pos3 = 1005 RUDDER ONLY!! This is so I can land her with rudder only.

This seems to work well. Just make sure you keep your fingers on the switch when landing in case you need to abort and need the ailerons in a hurry.

I found that the secret really is to be committed to your landing... and if you land a little hotter than normal, you will avoid the 'almost stalling' feeling.

Cheers
-J
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 10:53 PM
Detroit 2-stroke junkie
1320fastback's Avatar
USA, CA, Oceanside
Joined Jul 2008
3,275 Posts
Saw this at the beach yesterday, I think its some sort of sea plane

I think the tail broke in flight cause its definitely broke in the pic.
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Old Jul 27, 2009, 11:51 PM
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oldpilot's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Katoomba
Joined May 2002
5,434 Posts
I can't see a broken tail.
Perhaps he's just giving it a bath.
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Old Jul 28, 2009, 12:28 AM
Formerly bUd~Fokker
vvV FANG Vvv's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Eurongilly
Joined Aug 2008
2,039 Posts
Yeah nothing worse than a dirty easystar!
Maybe he has gone from wind surfing to real surfing .... now wouldnt that be a blast taking off from the crest of a wave!
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Old Jul 28, 2009, 01:29 AM
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Australia, NSW, Katoomba
Joined May 2002
5,434 Posts
WELL. It's Gone,Gone, GONE.



Yes my faithful old Easy Star, the first one in Australia, took off on it's own and disappeared into a load of bush on the face of a cliff, never to be seen again.
If you ever saw the film "Lantana" you will know what I mean.
I really loved that plane.

My new one (with sliver wings) arrived a couple of days ago and I am scratching around to find some gear from "the swamp" (my MAW), which will sufice to get it in the air. So far I have found an old 7.2V 400 and an 8 cell 2350mah NiMh, a couple of HS 60's and a Hitec 555 RX. I have to find a suitable brushed ESC if I am to succeed in using all old gear. The only alternative is using a spare AR 6200 2.4gz RX I have ---but that would be like putting "new wine in old bottles", wouldn't it ?? Love my Spectrum DX6i TX though.
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